Shaking Up Industry Norms with Mariana Padilla

In this episode of GTM After Hours, Mark Bliss interviews Mariana Padilla, CEO of the HACKERverse, about shaking up the go-to-market approach in the cybersecurity industry. Mariana shares her career journey, from being a school teacher to founding her own marketing agency and eventually becoming the CEO of the Hackerverse. They discuss the challenges in the go-to-market process, the importance of transparency and storytelling, and the need for human connection in the industry. They also touch on the the importance of being a generalist in today's economic climate, share a ton of quirky Midwestern lingo, and chat about the importance of human connection in B2B.

Chapters

• 0:00 Intro and Background
• 6:08 Challenges in the Enterprise Buying Process
• 10:33 Shaking Shit Up: Transparency and Showcasing Product Capabilities
• 21:33 Treating Employees as Assets and Creating Brand Fans
• 35:54 The Era of Generalists
• 42:56 Favorite Bands and Concert Experiences
• 48:30 Connecting on a Human Level
• 54:06 Rocking the Boat (Respectfully)
• 58:43 Being a Good Conversationalist

Transcript

0:36

Hi, welcome to another episode of GTM After Hours, where we talk to go -to-market professionals, experts, everybody from ICs to executive team members, and get kind of the 411 on what's happening and go -to -market right now. Now, this is going to be a great conversation. I've got Mariana Padilla here, who's the CEO of the Hackerverse. If you're in cybersecurity, you have no doubt... seen her all over your newsfeed. I actually just saw a post she celebrated 4000 followers. And so maybe maybe we'll be able to get it to to 5000 of everybody who sees this, you know, podcasts and the you know, the post from it, go ahead and follow her. But her LinkedIn is actually backslash here to shake shit up. And so we're going to be drilling down a lot into what it means to shake shit up. We're going to be asking a lot of questions about go -to -market approaches in this very, very weird economy and what it's like scaling a company that is challenging industry norms. And so without any further ado, I'm excited. I'll kick it over. How about we give you that like 30 ,000 foot view that you can give to the audience of your career because you've had such a, an interesting journey. I know you had an agency for for a while that you founded. I see you founded an urban farming initiative. You were a school teacher like like to tell me, tell me that journey. I know our audience would be very interested in it. Yeah, no, absolutely. Well, first of all, thank you so much for having me on. I've been meaning to message you about coming on and it worked out really well. So I'm super happy to be here and hopefully can provide some value and insight to the folks listening. Yeah, so I have my master's degree in teaching. you know, right out of undergrad school, spend a little bit of time bopping around in retail before discovering, my God, if I have to spend the rest of my life here, I will die. So then I moved on, got my master's degree in teaching and spent some time in education. You know, really, you know, bless the teachers out there, first of all, who, you know, that is their passion and that is their calling. I am definitely someone who I feel like I need to have. I need to have an emotional connection. I need to feel something about what it is that I'm doing. I need to feel value. I need to feel purpose. You know, purpose -driven is something that I very much believe in, a purpose-driven career. But, you know, what I really came to discover in that initial role was there were just a lot of external challenges facing the kids that I was working with. So inner city school, we'll just say that first of all. You know, and it's like as a history teacher, I... you probably shouldn't care about the Mexican -American war if you're like literally homeless. Like why do you give any shits about what it is that I am saying, right? So, and that's not to like disparage education or anything like that. I just felt like having kids with so many, you know, things that they were facing in life was, I didn't feel like I was making the impact that I wanted. So eventually moved over to nonprofit and it was really kind of there that I, kind of started getting connected with marketing and storytelling and that whole thing. So initially started out as a community impact manager and then there were some marketing roles open within the organization that I was working for. And that was really kind of, I would say where I really got more in touch with like my passion for storytelling. I think it had always been there. Like, you know, as a teacher, one of the best ways I think to get through to students is storytelling. Like if you're telling the stories of the people involved in historical events, that's so much more interesting than memorize this date and this fact and this person. Like, okay, like what have we as adults ever used that information for, right? Like it's about imprints, it's about critical thinking. Like there's a whole other conversation to be had there about what it is that we're actually teaching in American public school systems, but that's not. what this podcast is for. But... musical from that information. I mean, it worked well for Lin -Manuel Miranda. absolutely, absolutely. but yeah, so, started working on some marketing stuff when I was there, did a lot of like storytelling around impact and the stories of donors and, and people involved and, you know, just really kind of humanizing a lot of their content, which is really kind of like the, the thing that I think that I have really, along with storytelling, really staked my career around. is like making and building community and forming a human connection is something that, you know, I think is very undervalued and honestly, I think is the key to everything and success. But so then the pandemic happened and I had been looking to switch into some marketing roles. Didn't happen. All those jobs that I was applying for evaporated in one way. And so I started freelancing and then built my agency from there. And it was during that time working at my marketing agency that I came face to face with the enterprise buying process. Not necessarily cybersecurity, but just purchasing tools for my clients and onboarding clients onto CRM and sales software and other things. And just thinking to myself, why is this process so dumb? Why do I need to get on five phone calls with you to purchase HubSpot? Like why, like all I want to be able to do is like poke around in this software and experience all features of it and understand whether or not this is what we want. and I think a lot of people will, resonate with what I say with like, it was like the existential dread that comes when you have to click on the talk to sales button. You're like, here we go. mean, so the the former sales guy in me dies a little inside when you say that. But the consumer, you know, who buys enterprise software, feels it deep in my soul. So. Yeah. Yeah. And then, you know, I was actually giving a presentation on B2B Instagram marketing, which the whole thing there was about humanization and community and like forming these connections. And that's when I met my co -founder and he told me about this vision he had for really revolutionizing the sales process starting in cybersecurity. But really, I think, you know, long -term our vision is, other categories of software as well. And I just really saw the vision. initially came on board as an advisor and then became CEO because I got ingrained in the cybersecurity industry, took a look around and was like, this is an industry that is ripe for disruption. and it doesn't need to be this stupid, to, to purchase process, to purchase products. Well, I think I think they enjoy the slowness in a way. I mean, I I think there's a comfort in having that many steps in a process because then it's, you know, nobody's fault if it messes up. Right. If it goes quickly and somebody implements it very fast, well, then they're on the hook. Right, right. Well, and I, you know, I think that I, by no means am I disparaging the entire process. I think there's just a lot of friction and, you know, I am famous for my virtual coffees, which that I do. I think that's how we met was virtual coffee. and I just can't tell you the number of times, like, I've talked to both buyers and vendors and just like the, you know, the number of times I've heard the same complaint. It's like, look, like we got this customer all the way to the POC process and they bailed and we spent. three months building this POC and then they didn't buy it from us and we lost all that time and money or on the other side conversely. Well, we were promised this product and then the feature we bought it for wasn't ready for six months down the road or we didn't have an internal advocate who could help us implement it. So we wasted all this money and it went in the closet and we never used it again or just, there's so many inefficiencies. And at the end of the day, it's about security and securing what matters. and securing data and peace of mind, right? It's all, we're selling peace of mind. That's what we're selling as the cybersecurity industry. And it's become, we kind of drifted away from that, I guess, is what I'm trying to say. And there's, yeah, there's a lot of friction. So there's a lot of room for improvement. One of my old mentors used to say that the the difference between a leader and somebody who's living in the system is that they make a decision and live with the consequences. And I think that that's pretty, you know, a big part of this buying process is nobody wants to make a decision and live with the consequences. And so you end up getting 17 people in a buying committee. Right. Six of them, you don't even get to meet, even though you have 17 calls with everybody. And it's the most convoluted system just because nobody wants to make a decision, in my opinion. Right. Yeah. Well, I mean, there's so much at stake, right? And, and rightfully so there's going to continue to more and more legislation and heads will roll and in some cases, rightfully so. but you know, if, if it's, you know, because wrong purchasing decisions were the wrong purchasing decision was made. you know, we can now say, well, there could be legal consequences for that. So, you know, I, there's a lot to, a lot to consider here, I guess, in this conversation, what I'm trying to say. So what does it mean to shake shit up? You know, like that's, I kind of love that that's your, your, your backend of your LinkedIn URL, but it feels like there has to be like a full 17 to 30 page manifesto around it, right? Yeah, the manifesto. Yeah, well, I mean, I just actually posted about this today on LinkedIn. I think it's, you know, it's all about transparency, right? So I mean, we're talking about these these purchasing committees, we're talking about people not wanting to pull the trigger on things. We're talking about this conversation with, you know, a lot of fear around the purchasing process. And I think it's because it's from a lack of transparency. And so for me, shaking shit up is shining a spotlight and allowing vendors an option to really showcase what their product does and how it works and how well it works. And for them to say, and we're at a place now where some of the vendors that we're working with on our platform. saying, we're printing our money where our mouth is, put us in the World Hacker Games arena, let's showcase how our product works. And now even companies saying, put us in the ring against our competitors and we'll see who stacks out on top because they're so confident that their product works. I think there's a lot of chatter and a lot of conversations happening and some of these bigger companies are really dominating that and CrowdStrike or whatever, like these big companies have more market share, but there's a lot of really, Smaller companies who have incredible technology and pertinent to the conversation that we're having today, or your podcast, have a really hard time breaking into marketing, going to market, figuring out what their strategy is. For us, the Hackerverse is that platform and the strategy for them, and it's all about transparency. I was on Bronwen's podcast, shout out Bronwen, a couple of months ago, and she said, well, if we're talking about changing marketing, what What should these companies be saying? And for me, it's not about saying anything. It's about showing. Just show us how the damn thing works. Like, just show us. And then it's like, okay, great, problem solved. Let's test this in your environment, your own environment. Like, let's see this. Let's emulate the production environment. Let's simulate these attacks. Let's showcase how this works and say, yeah, I really like this or no, this is not actually what's needed. So that's what it's all about, transparency and in this case, in the case of cybersecurity, showcasing in real time how products work. We need the product to work for sure. But, you know, it's interesting in this economy, though. I feel like the importance of brands is so much higher today. You know, that transactional traditional inbound marketing game is kind of fizzling out because even to make it to that head to head, they have to have some sort of awareness of who you are. And it. makes it much easier for those big companies you were mentioning, even though their product might be a little bit more flawed than that new up and comer who has amazing proprietary technology coming out the gate. And so how do you how do you balance that? You know, when when you're in that head to head and bake off, what did you do before then to make sure they know who you already even put you in the bake off? Yeah, I mean, so, you know, part of the thing that we do at Hackerverse, we really specialize in working with cybersecurity startups and kind of figuring out how to tell the story of these cybersecurity startups in a way that showcases, you know, their competitive deltas, all that kind of stuff. I think that there are a lot of challenges with storytelling and communication in the industry in terms of. You know, lots of lingo doubling down on the FUD, all of that kind of stuff. And so it's like, what, what is it about you and your product that makes you so unique? And so that's, you know, in a way we, we do a lot of marketing with, with the customers that we're working with. You know, series A to D cybersecurity vendors are really our bread and butter, you know, young companies, good technology, great technology, you know, low, you know, obviously lower market share. So I think it's figuring out. how to better tell the stories of these companies. And if I had to say, I have like a personal mission and all of this, it's, it is really around the storytelling and how do we tell the story of these companies and products in a completely different way. That's not so, what am I trying to say? Like not a pro not, not, not approachable, but it's just like, I'm totally not, I'm blanking on the word, but like, you know, makes people like hesitant to approach, right? So I think there's a lot of challenges around storytelling and communication. And I think that's part of it as well is like helping these younger companies figure that out, tell their story in different ways, and then be able to say, okay, now that we've heard the story of X by Indie company, let's put them in world hacker games, come explore their, you know, their self -service POC, all that kind of stuff. So definitely. Brand awareness is part of it as well, for sure. Well, and there's always this challenge like the smaller companies you're talking A and B round folks, their investors often bring in, whether it's consultants, agencies or, you know, an individual, you know, they hire the CMO and they're trying to implement a playbook from another port code that was successful. And, you know, it's an interesting thing to be. I see some benefit in that. But I see so much negative because that was such a time and place that that playbook worked. And, you know, coming in and trying to do the same thing tells me that you're not going to do the work to truly understand who your buyers are. You know, if you're trying to tell a story, you need to first understand your audience, right? Right. a hundred percent. Yeah. No, a hundred percent. And that, and that's one of the things that we do. actually the, the first step when we, we onboard customers is really take a deep dive into that. And it's like, okay, well, who are your customers? And it, I think some of it is even, we have to try to move away from sell to see, so is our entire strategy. Right. So, okay. You're selling, you're selling to see, okay, great. Cool. See, yes. See, so are going to buy your product and, and, and, and, you know, maybe you have the. have the purchasing power and be the ultimate decision maker, but that's not a strategy, right? Like who are we talking about here? And who's going to be most willing and resonant? Like who is your message going to resonate the most with? And I think, you know, there is a lot of work that needs to be done on the front end to really discover that. So then it's like, okay, well, here's a targeted POC based on, you know, companies in the FinTech space who are mid -market, who, you know, maybe it's CISOs. It's also like they have, a source asks their team to help with sourcing and evaluation processes. There's a lot that goes into it. And I think that that is something that we have had to kind of help push people past that initial thing of like, well, obviously it's CISOs. And for those who haven't read Ross Halei-Liouk, I think that's how you pronounce his name, a cyber for builders book that he has a whole like chapter on selling to CISOs is not a winning strategy in 2024. Well, I mean, it goes back to the whole nobody wants to make a decision. So you saw the, the CISO, the CISO doesn't want to make the decision because the CISO is not going to be the one implementing it. Right. Right. So, you know, first of all, that's not a winning strategy from that. They also have the least amount of time to take your pitch They're never going to pick up that cold call. And if you think your Facebook ad is so great that they're going to click on it and fill out a demo form and purchase your software, like I just, I don't see that happening. And I think it's this default that people go to, you know, I want to go with the person with the most power and money, but you're actually looking for. the person with the most control over implementing your exact solution. And that is probably not the CISO. Right, right. Or you need an internal champion, the person who's gonna be, like you said, driving that tool, using it at the most, who can, who has the influence to say, this is exactly what we need, this is what I'm using, this is what I need you, Mr. CISO, to sign off on, or Mrs. CISO. Sorry, that was very gendered. Y 'all CISOs. of you to throw out the y 'all. Y 'all and then and then when you're walking by somebody and they're you know you're getting in their way you have to you have to say ope like every time Yeah. yeah, yeah. with It's both, obviously. I'm giving you a Scantron and it's a multiple choice question and you just fill in the right one. You know, actually, this is the perfect conversation for what we were talking about with people not wanting to make decisions. They could just say, yeah, no, or no, yeah. look at this. We have now completely solved leadership strategy in the entire world. Just. Midwestern Midwestern speak. That is, that's it. That's all you gotta do. Yeah, no, and then nobody ever knows if it's a yes or a no. Perfect. Perfect. You know, it's it's funny, I was just having a conversation with with a CEO at a early state cyber company yesterday. And we were talking about how do you get and collect that insight to be able to understand your buyers who makes decisions? What are the things that they're interested in? Where do they go to for information, all of that? And and they have a customer advisory board. Most companies have a customer advisory board of their raving fans, but they're not utilizing them. Mm -hmm. a company will utilize them for their road map. You know, they'll meet a few times a year, they'll wine and dine them to be able to keep them as raving fan accounts. But they should be sending surveys on a frequent basis. You know, like send a five question survey. You know, if you're if your ICP sent people to RSA. Who they send. Right. Right. did you implement in the last six months that are not us? Who made those decisions? Where did it come in from? Like, I don't know. You can learn so much if you're actually asking the questions, but I feel like people just don't ask. Right. Yeah, no, I completely agree. And it's a good, you know, it's all about communication. And if you think about it and, you know, like I was going mentioning earlier earlier, like that human connection, like it's a conversation, like just, you know, you gotta, you gotta engage in those conversations and, and, you know, pulse check with, with your customers and, you know, the. hundreds of virtual coffees I did last year, a lot of them turned out to be great sources of information for what we should be doing with our products. It was like, well, we're doing this. And I was like, well, have you considered X, Y, and Z? This would be the thing that could provide the most value. And then when you hear that three, four, five times, it's like, okay. Right. So having those continuous conversation, we will listen for those trends. be able to hear all of that kind of stuff in real time, I think is hugely important. Sorry. We, everyone just got home and the dogs wanted to tell everyone on the podcast, the family has arrived. Yeah, they're communicating it. I kind of love it. It's interesting because the way that work has changed so much since the pandemic because pre pandemic, if that happened on a call, it'd be like, that is unprofessional. You need to take the call into the room. I like what are you doing? Why do you even have a dog? Like, I don't know. It's a whole it's a whole thing. Yeah, right. People would shame you. And and now post pandemic. Everybody listening to this podcast is like, I wonder what dog she has. Like, like what is the breed? How cute is it? You know, and actually I want to know that. So I'm going to ask, what is the breed? How cute is it? But is it just such a big chain? obviously as a pet owner, I'm extremely biased. So I will say that they're the cutest dogs that have ever walked the earth, obviously. But I have three Labrador Retrievers. They're all red fox labs. So they're like a mahogany color. So another motivation, if you love dogs, follow me on LinkedIn because they make appearances every couple weeks or so. Furry Fridays, they'll pop up. You know, I like a good alliteration for for LinkedIn, so they'll pop up, yeah. As as long as it doesn't pop up in the context of I just pet my dogs and here's what it taught me about B2B fans. Absolutely not. it's just, I'm like, my eyes cannot roll back far enough for some of these posts on LinkedIn. And, and look, I know we're all guilty of some degree of it, but, but that's, that's like, okay. So I J walk sometimes. So I break the law versus I robbed a bank. You know, like there's a, there's a huge difference here. You know most people it's like yeah I draw I drew some inspiration from a thing that I did or a conversation I had a post that on LinkedIn but some of these are getting wild. Yeah, no, absolutely. The desperation is real. The desperation is real. And then we're seeing like this ridiculous content, which if you know, if you have been listening this far, my advice is human connection and just connecting with people and having a real conversation. I'm going to keep saying it. Yeah, actually, the algorithm is so much better to you as a professional on LinkedIn. If you're commenting on other people's posts, then then it is you creating your own out of the ether. Like you can really benefit from that connection request, fly your way. And there's a whole conversation happening. You're getting no other people instead of just like this one sided. I'm going to I'm going to post a picture of my dog and talk about how. you know, buying them a new bag of food and trying that out is exactly like trying new products. Hahaha And please, somebody listening, do not take that and use it like. If I see that on LinkedIn, I'm going like I'm going to I'm going to cringe so bad and I will have to comment. Yes, absolutely, that's funny. So you you have talked a lot about that, you know, that human centric and building relationships. How how does that affect how you build a company? You know, as the CEO, you know, how does that affect your decision making, the people that you work with? You know, who do you bring on into the team? How do you handle, you know, even frankly, fundraising? Like it's it's so different. And I'm sure. I'm sure you're having one of those square peg round hole moments. Yes, that happens frequently. That happens frequently. Yeah, well, I mean, since the very beginning of building the company, we've always felt that community led growth should be key. It will be key to our success. We've doubled down on that since the beginning. The Hackerverse community now up to over 5,000 members on Discord. And, you know, if you think about it, like we're all trying to find our tribe and find where we fit in and all of that kind of stuff. And if you can be the home for that as a company, then you've gone a long way towards winning that game. You know, And I think that the thing that makes cybersecurity so unique is I think for a lot of people in this space, it's so much more than just an industry. Like it's a lifestyle. Defcon is a cultural experience, like going to freaking Burning Man. It is a vibe. So, I mean, it is kind of similar when you're thinking about building a company and the people that you work with. I think it's very important to... to find people to invest in you and to work with who agree with that sentiment, right? So for us, it's like, you know, we, you know, are not your family. Like I can't stand that. Like when companies are like, we're your family. No, you're not, Marv. I do not expect you to, no. And I expect you to love your outside life like more than you can love this company. Me, I love, this is my life because I'm a founder and this is what I chose. And I chose that. But I'm not trying to like impose that on other people or employees, right? Like, obviously love your life, we're not your family, all that kind of stuff. And, you know, work life fell into the whole nine yards. It's, you know, one of the things, and we're talking about, you know, what is actually does it mean to shake shit up? I think, I think a lot about like, what do companies of the future look like? And for me, it's like, how do we treat employees the way that they want to be treated so that they can bring their best selves to work? Right. So not the golden rule, treat others the way you want to be treated. No, because I'm people that's going to be different for everyone. So but like, how can we create a true community of brand fans as well as employees? And I think when you when you do that is when you see success, you know, there's a lot of different financial models you can play around with. You know, unfortunately, like, well, fortunately, unfortunately, we're in a space where we're pursuing like a traditional VC investment route, but it's interesting to see people playing around with new financial models in terms of like co -op, you know, ownership, joint ownership, and that just that goes beyond like equity in a company in which there's a whole conversation we had about who actually is able to cash out on those deals in the end when there's acquisitions. So what does like true ownership and cooperative ownership of a company look like? It's funny because I was just telling my team, I don't know if you remember this trend, like the Roman Empire trend, but men think about the Roman Empire like 12 times a day. My Roman Empire is new economic systems. Like I am constantly noodling on this. Like why are we operating by these rules put in place in like the 1800s that like, you know, why are we adapting like the way we think about, you know, economics and running businesses and all this kind of stuff. But I just got up on my soapbox. I'm going to dismount now. No, I love I love the soapbox. You know, accounting practices is is an absolute killer of a lot of growth because, you know, you're you're dealing with standards and norms that are decades old and it's maybe not. I mean, frankly, I think that that's the blame for a lot of the mass layoffs that we're seeing, because people are a cost center when. In reality, you know, people are an asset that well -trained employee who's been with you for years is a bigger asset than the trade show booth that you bought. You know, so why why is it treated like a cost center? But that trade show booth is treated like an asset. And it's just a really interesting view. And so now I love I love your soapbox and. My soapbox says that I'm extremely excited that Ticketmaster and Live Nation is being brought up on some monopoly charges because I think that you know, we talk shake shit up. I Think that's a great place to start because it's highly visible Everybody's been to a concert in their lifetime. And so understanding the mechanics of how that monopoly was built. I think a normal person is going to be able to understand it. And that's going to really truly help them understand and spot all of the monopolies and injustices that are a part of our everyday life now. Right, right. It's interesting. I'm not a Swiftie, but, you know, Taylor Swift really kind of brought this to the forefront, right? Like, you know, for the ticket master debacles and how much people had to pay and like the whole nine yards. So it got the conversation rolling. So, kudos to her for that. And then, you know, keeping the American economy afloat. Exactly. Okay. So, so it's, it's interesting when you talk about like those type of crowd sourced models where everybody gets ownership in the company. I, I saw Gary V talking about it one time in a video and how, unless somebody has an ownership stake in the company, you cannot expect them. to work and treat the company like an owner. And so I love that you said like, if this is your job, I expect you to prioritize your family, you know, do the job that you're getting paid for, but I don't expect you to treat it the same way that I am as a CEO and founder. Right, right, right, right. And I think about some of those like spoof of counts on Instagram of like the guy who reads the corporate toxic, you know, like horror shit show stories and they're all real. And it's just like, that's not who I ever want to be. Like as, as like, as a leader, you know, as a leader, you inspire and you bring people along and move them towards that goal. And what does that, what does that entail? I mean, they need to bring their best selves to work in order to do that. In order to do that, you need to recognize that, you know, you need to be respectful of them and, you know, what their lives look like and all that kind of stuff. It's just wild. There's like, it's like corporate swine, I think is his handle. And he reenacts just these actual stories of leaders who just like gone horribly awry in the process. And it's like, man, like this is what happens when you devalue. the human in the workforce, like you were talking about, cost center. This is what happens when you totally devalue the people that work in your companies and don't view them as an asset, I guess is what I'm trying to say. Well, and I also don't think that that's the future because, you know, I think companies are struggling right now to retain the best talent because the best talent knows their worth and they question everything. You know, the best talent is going to be somebody who thinks for themselves, the person who challenges the status quo in your company. And there are not as many of those people as I think, you know, the C -suite executives believe that there are. Mm -hmm. And without those people, now you have a lot of, you know, it's that yes, man syndrome where it's like, you know, this full vacuum where now everybody disagrees with the highest ranked person's idea. And that's how your company has its like slow descent into the ether. Right. Right. I E Gavin Belson Silicon Valley. Not sure if you've ever watched that show, but yeah, the time there was like an elephant and then he didn't want the elephant and then the elephant, like he did want the elephant. Yeah. Yeah, it's it's it's so interesting. And I, I also think that colleges are not built to prepare. A worker for today's society because it changed so quickly and so rapidly after the pandemic. You know, you need real world experience, but also a lot of our real world experience came in an era. where it wasn't the same as this era. So we built a lot of bad habits, you know, and any anybody who is in the workforce before, you know, you value in person communication a lot more than maybe you should. Right, right, right. Yeah, no, it has, it has changed dramatically and thinking about like, you know, old rules that we're still playing by, we created this public school system so we could have, you know, efficient factory line workers, which is why we have the public school system that looks like it does today. Right. And, you know, so that definitely needs to change. And when it comes to like hiring people like Craig, my co -founder, Craig and I have talked a lot about this. We're not interested in pedigree. Can you do the job? Can you wear multiple hats? Which, you know, like, Some people say that's red flag in it. Sorry. In an early stage startup, you have to wear multiple hats and you have to be like, you know, driven to bring in revenue, just like everybody else where the ship we're rowing the boat together. And if you can't row with us and you can't be on the boat, sorry. but pedigree doesn't matter to us. Can you execute? Do you believe in the vision? Are you going to work with us to get it done? you know, like, do you be, want to be around like people that, you know, have the same outlooks on, on, changing things as what we're doing and all of those kinds of things. So, yeah, I don't know. I think specialists are less important in today's world. Everybody doubled down on specialists all across go -to -market. You specialize, you had your STRs and then your AEs and your CSMs breaking up the entire sales process from what used to be an account manager that handled all three. Now, you broke up and you specialize the sales cycle and then marketing came into like 17 different specializations and my God, it's crazy. And I get it. I like somebody owning something, but I think the value comes when yes, they can own that thing, but they need to understand how the other things work so they can connect dots. Otherwise, you're not integrating anything that you're doing. You may have the best event in the world, but your follow -up might suck or you didn't run. the right ads beforehand, or you don't have the right messaging. And so even if you had 7 ,000 people come through your booth, nobody gave a shit about what you said because your messaging was off and it didn't tie into your ICP. I think the era of generalists is coming. But again, I think it's the generalists who can still own a piece, but they understand and can do. at least a few other things in the org. And that also helps you in any type of fast growing startup because you're not as much, you're not as person dependent. And so if somebody is going away on vacation for a couple of weeks or God forbid they were in the hospital, you at least have somebody who can take in and take the reins on the thing. Whereas if you're full special, fully specialized, you're screwed. Right. Yeah. No, I completely agree. I completely agree. You need to be understand like how the cogs fit together and the wheels turn. Like, and if you're like, I only do then I'm just going to say I'm not picking on technical writers, but like technical content writers. And that's the only thing I've ever done. And this is the thing that I know the map blog post is like top priority for you. And that's it. The blog post, right? It was like, okay, but how do we reuse this blog post in a video ad to promote an event, to get, you know, like clients and move them through the funnel, all this kind of stuff matters, right? So it's understanding that holistic approach as well, for sure. I think the the old adage of like stay in your lane is helpful, but also really detrimental for a fast growing startup because you need people who are going to, you know, connect the dots and question the status quo. You know, like I want a you know, I want an inbound marketing leader, you know, somebody who runs our advertising to have run an event before. connect those dots. You want somebody who understands metrics, you don't want to just leave it all to mops and rev ops. Or you don't want to leave it all up to your executive layer to make all those decisions because then you can't run as Right. Right. Well, I mean, I think the bigger conversation here is just, you know, how we are building these companies, right? And like, what is actually required? to succeed in the future. And I think, you know, you're right, we are seeing a lot of layoffs in tech and it goes back to the valuations that these companies had and this growth at all like costs like grow, grow, grow, invest, grow, grow, grow. Okay, so what do you do when you grow? You hire like 15 new people and then you do all these things because that's what the consultants tell you to do. And this is how you grow and scale a company. And then, you know, like when, you know, the... economy takes a slight downturn and we see interest rates raised and money is more expensive and investors aren't necessarily going to give you more money. This is the result that we're seeing, which is unfortunate, right? Because you do have a lot of really incredible talent that has been on the market for far too long, right? So just an unfortunate situation. But I do think you're right. I think people are going to have to start wearing more than one hat. Yeah, you're bray. You got to find a sombrero. You got a what else? We bowler. Do you have a bowler hat? Like what else can you put on? I love your order of hats. I feel like there's a psychological element. That is the order of hats that you came up with in your head. I do, I will say that I have been learning French. I am a huge Francophile, like everything French. Like I'm the person that pronounces it, Croissant. Croissant. And that is my, I like really want to go to the French Riviera. That's my dream travel destination. So there you go. Beret, so then it's a no brainer that beret was the first thing to come out of my mouth. It's like an inkblot test at the therapist. What do you see? Bray hat. hat. What's the difference between a bowler hat and a pork pie? I don't know. I don't know enough about hats either. I'm not a hat wearer. And all of all of my hats are like either sports hat. I mean, they're all dad hats. Like it just kind of is. But it's all sports or bands. Because sometimes I'm at a concert and the the T -shirts aren't really jiving with me. So I'll buy a hat. And so I got a handful of those. But no, no bowler hats in my house. I don't know the difference. Okay. And I haven't had a croissant in a while. the like what's the the the pique tat that is associated with Asian countries? What's the name of that one? What is that one called? You know? I don't know. We might have to crowdsource that. Maybe that's like the... Yeah. If there is a hat category on Jeopardy, we would, we would not do well. trivia category is music. Like that is why I'm on the team. I can handle music questions usually from 40s to today pretty well. So like that is my category. Everything else, I just trust other people to know. I can't tell you that actor from that movie, like, sorry. you look at like these BuzzFeed, these actors are doppelgangers. They're bringing in actors that all look the same. So how are we supposed to tell them all apart anyway? Anyway, that's neither here nor there. if they're playing superheroes and they're a guy, all of them are named Chris. So how am I supposed to keep that straight? You know, like which Chris am I talking about? I don't know. They have last names. I'm sure I don't know them. I don't know. Yeah. So is there a, do you have a favorite band or who, or, and, or who have you seen in concert most? And then I can share mine. Ooh. I think my favorite band of all time is Queen. Okay. Very, very good choice. I'll stand for I never I never got the chance to see them with Freddie, but I've seen them a couple of times with Adam Lambert and it was fabulous. But, you know, I've watched some of the old concerts and it was great. My favorite new band is called Lawrence. They actually they actually testified against Ticketmaster in the Senate, walking through how they make money as an independent band. They actually just opened for the Jonas Brothers last year. They are a phenomenal band. I'm a sucker for anything with a horn in it. And so they have an entire like horn section with trumpet and saxophone player and everything. ska back in the day? Did you love a good ska? was actually to this day, the mighty, mighty Boston's the impression that I get is one of my like, you know, hype up songs. Like if I'm having a bad day, I'll throw that on and hop in the shower or something like it's, it's, it's just all the vibes. So that was my very first concert ever. Mighty Mighty Boston's open for the offspring. I was in sixth grade. Wow, yours is way cooler than mine. Mine was, do you remember that R &B group Next? They sang the song, Too Close. name. I have no idea what they what music they produce. Not a clue. yeah, they had they had two hits they had too close, which looking back, my parents should have never let me sing that song around the house. And then their other hit was wifey. Okay. But that like that was that was my first concert that wasn't like me being brought along to my parents concerts. Like, you know, I saw, you know, Peter Frampton a bunch of times like Survivor, Eddie Money, like all that when I was young. But yeah, next was my first one. Not as not as cool like as the offspring and mighty, mighty Boston's like shit. one. I mean, I'm proud of that. I can say definitely proud of that. That's a good first concert. So the band I've seen most in multiple states and favorite band, Fall Out Boy. Love me some Fall Out Boy. Love it. saw their their post pandemic tour with Green Day and I don't know if we caught that the hell Omega tour. The energy on that was so great because they had planned to go out during the pandemic and then everything got pushed back. And so I think their show here in Detroit was, I don't know, maybe the fifth or sixth one on the tour. And I've never seen more energy from these these bands. I mean, Fall Out Boy just. they gave everything and you could just tell how much they loved being back in front of an audience. So good. kicked off their new tour and did it at Wrigley Field. So Chicago's hometown heroes. And it was awesome seeing them at Wrigley Field. So I saw them last spring or something like that. So excellent, excellent there. Yeah. That park scares me and like the the the high levels like I don't I don't dig it. I don't dig it at all It's all about the vibe. Speaking of vibe, I mean, the Wrigley Field vibe is, I mean, as long as your guess not up in the nose blades. Always a fun time. Always a fun time at Wrigley. I love like the historic nature of these places and I never like I never want them torn down like I was really sad when Tiger Stadium got demolished. Yeah, because it's like it's this it's historic. But then you also look around and you're like, these are the seats. This is this is the bathroom. Like I paid three hundred dollars to be here. that, that, that nature of things right there is very out of date. And now that I'm in Cincinnati, Red Stadium is new and it's lovely and it's yeah. So there's definitely something to be said for an upgrade for sure. There's the trade off. It's whenever I talk to people like I'm a big theater nerd. And so I love going and seeing Broadway shows. But all of those theaters are so incredibly old. Their their bathroom situation leaves a lot to be desired. You're literally like going down winding staircases and you know, it's it's tiny. It's certainly not enough for everybody to use the bathroom in a 15 minute intermission. remember that. Yeah, even the ones here in Chicago, you have like the Cadillac Theater, you have like a couple ones. I definitely remember that because taking my daughter to see several shows over the years. Yeah. I can't remember the name of the theater that I saw Hamilton at in Chicago. It was right when they opened. It was the first time that Hamilton was performed outside of New York. So of course, I'm going to take the four and a half hour drive and go see it in Chicago. And yeah, that theater like I'm a I'm a large guy for those who never met me in real life. Like I'm six foot three. I'm a giant. And those chairs. were not built for me at all. Like I had bruises on my knees because of me was like right right there up against it. And it was yeah it was it was super uncomfortable but worth it because Hamilton put not not super comfortable like I just need y 'all to to renovate like give me some I don't know eliminate like three rows of seats and space everything out a little bit more. Like that would be nice, especially since I paid like $200 for the ticket. But we should probably, we should probably go back to shaking shit up about, GTM. it was, it was quite, it was quite the detour, but I enjoy all of the detours. and I rarely edit them out of this podcast because I, I don't know if the entire, plan and approach is. to humanize and connect with people. You know, and that's, that's the, the whole focus and what we're talking about on this podcast is like, how do you, how do you connect with your ICP? Well, part of connecting with your ICP is going so off the outside of the conversation where you start learning new things about people. And it's awesome. Like I'm, I am never going to forget that you got to see the mighty, mighty Boston's and offspring as your first concert. Like, That is fucking epic. And honestly, I know nobody does it anymore, but but you should you should totally have that be be a ringtone on your phone. So and always keep your phone on. And any time it rings and you're on a Zoom meeting, you're like, hey, funny story about that. do do do do do do Yeah, yeah. Funny, funny story about that. That was my first concert. And you just be, you're repeating that or, or put, put the album behind you. There you go. There we go. Now that I'm not bouncing around and have my one office, I can put some fun things up here. Yes, you have a lot of inspiration there. I have a lot of work to do. Mine looks like a Wayfair background. I love, yeah, yours is very cool. I really subscribe to that, you know, maximalist mindset when it comes, like I want colors. I want stuff. I want all the things behind me. And so, yeah. And it's all functional too. Like I, before we hit record on this podcast, we were talking about music and, yeah, I literally pulled the matchbox 20 CD out because we were referencing that. so yeah, very, very useful. Yes. Yes. Well, I mean, and just to go back to what you were talking about just a minute ago, you know, I think you have to be okay with going off the path, right? And, and, you know, you, you, you get people who are like training sales folks, and these are the questions that you ask you take them through this process and you do this. And like, even if they're already at step three, you have to start at step one. And it's like some of the best sales calls I've ever had were not sales calls, but any stretch of the imagination. We, we. you know, shot the shit for 30 minutes about, I don't even, God knows what. And because we, we hit it off and we liked each other as human beings, then it became, well, this is really interesting. I think my company would like really benefit from your services. Let's also have a sales call. Right. So I think that that's the thing that, that just so often missing, you know, and that it goes along with communication and like, how are we talking about these things? Is it from an entirely corporate jargon lens or like, can we just like connect human beings while we're doing this thing? You know, Ahem. Well, and it opens the door to, you know, I did this nerd wall experience at RSA and Black Hat with my team. And we, the resistance that we got was more around, well, if people are coming for comic books and to meet Superman, they're not coming to hear about us. And my response to everybody was. They're not coming to hear about us regardless. You know, connect with the person first and then tell them why they should give a shit about your pitch and then make sure your pitch is good. You know, like you now have attention. You have somebody waiting in line for 20 minutes. What do you do with that? And it's the same thing like you build this relationship and you connect with somebody. Now you've got a chance. Now you have a shot that. Right. Right. Right. Yeah. So as an entrepreneur, you go through a lot of pitch practice and pitch competitions and all this kind of stuff. And that's the biggest piece of feedback they always give to, entrepreneurs is you cannot start off with the product because if you start out with the product, we have, you know, a SIM solution that does blah, blah, blah, blah, blah, blah, blah, blah. Okay, why does this matter? Who cares? Like you need to have that hook. And it's just like, makes so much sense. If you think about it just from, you know, like from a conversational point of view, if you break it down, we're just having a conversation on a human to human level, what is going to be the thing that's going to capture their interest? Well, I know that a lot of people are really concerned about like ransomware in hospitals, is your data safe? Like, so we start there sometimes, or, you know, like whatever it is, but you know, you have to start off with the why. And you have to be able to make that connection and then go from there because you already lost them. Like if you're starting off with the product and here's what we provide. And that's the first thing that they always tell entrepreneurs. And if you think about it that way, it applies to everything else that we're already talking about. Well, and one of the things that I like to do is slip in pop culture references wherever I can in my pitch, because if it doesn't resonate with the person, then they just ignore it and it goes past. But if it does, now you've made an impression. You know, if you if you talk about your solution and you say, well, we're going to have a conversation in this pitch. You know, if at any time I say something that interests you. I want us to stop, collaborate and then listen. And yeah, and the person that recognizes that they're going to, it's, you know, vanilla ice or, or you throw a quote out there from an Avengers movie or a Star Wars or something. And I don't know. You just see, you just see what resonates into the room and the majority of the time it's going to help you and it, it's not going to lose you anything because if they don't get it, then they don't get it. Right, right, right. I think, you know, part of it is just like making that impression of being memorable because if you're sitting in a room full of people pitching, you know, and using the same jargon and talking about their product and all of that kind of stuff, it's so not memorable. But it's like, yeah, that was the company where I talked to the guy about Florida man and the alligator getting thrown through the drive -through window. I remember that guy. Literal true story. thrown through the window. drive -through, drive -through window, McDonald's window, because the order was incorrect. But somehow, in the process of conversing with some vendor, I can't, you know, like, I think it was Black Hat, somehow Florida Man came up and we had a whole conversation about Florida Man and alligators. And then it was like, you can pick that up on LinkedIn. Hey, we had this whole ridiculous conversation about Florida Man and alligators. Like, let's also talk about X, Y, and Z. So, I mean, Just be a good conversationalist. Care about people on a human level. That's that that goes to your messaging, too, though. I mean, the things that you put out on your social. I mean, I think it's funny you were talking about how, you know, this corporate B2B brand that you're talking to was discussing link or not Instagram. It was Instagram. Right. And it's like. That is such a tough, a tough world for for any corporate brand. Most don't do it well. because they're trying to be super professional on a platform that is anything but. A hundred percent. Yes. And I can tell you like right off the, you know, right off the bat, there are some really, really awesome brands killing it. Well, you know, national park service. I don't know if you follow national park service on Instagram, they're a hoot. They're hilarious. And it's like, you would not expect that from the national park service. Also, who gives a crap TP. I know that's a consumer brand. That's not B2B, but, they also do a really good job, but there's, you know, some good examples of out there and it is because they're connecting on a human level. That's it. That's, I've said it like 55 times in this conversation, but if you remember anything, that's the only thing I want you to remember. I love that. Well, how do people how do people connect with you if they're trying to, you know, build that relationship or they want to take you up on one of the coffee talks that you've offered? coffee talks. Do you remember that reference? have then you have to have a croissant. Yes, yes. Well, do you remember coffee talks? It was like an SNL skit from like the early Yeah, okay. I did that for my high school talent show. The three of us did coffee socks for my high school my high school talent show. So there we go. Learn another fun facts. I can't remember what was the name of this get I don't even remember. don't remember either. Yeah, but I have enough gray. I have enough gray in my beard that denotes. I mean, I was watching, you know, when Chris Fowler was talking about the van down by the river. hmm. So I don't like when things are classics because then it means that I'm old because I can distinctly remember watching that on on on my like tube TV, you know, the. ancient archaic tube. I also remember buying the 13 inch TV VCR combo three hundred dollars that I had saved up over multiple years. And nowadays, you know, I can get like a TV that's 70 inches for that same Crazy. your question. hack reverse .ai is our URL. and as you mentioned in the very beginning, linkedin .com backslash here to shake shit up. I am most present on LinkedIn. I actually, well, yeah, that's, I mean, find me on LinkedIn. That's the, that's the best place. but yeah, check, check us out. schedule virtual coffee. Hit me up in the DMS. I'm always happy to connect. Well, I will ask I will ask one last question. I'll give you the final word What is one piece of advice that you'd give that brand new to corporate world? Version of yourself from you know, we're just gonna say five years ago Hmm. What would I give myself advice from five years ago? man. think it is okay to rock the boat, but you need to do it in a way that doesn't piss people off. Because I used to just be like, that's stupid. And now you have to be like, well, I'm wondering if maybe we might want to consider a blah, blah, blah, blah, blah. And there's a way to, you know, question things without like discounting the value of people and what they bring to the table. So I think, you know, I've always been someone who's like, you know, wanted to change and improve things and nothing makes me madder. old stupid processes, which is why I helped found this company because you know, you say, there's a lot of stuff that you do in sales that, you know, it causes a lot of friction, but I would say, always be willing to rock the boat, but do it in a way that is respectful to others. There we go. Awesome. Well, with that, I want to end the podcast. Thank you to everybody who listened, especially if you got here to the end. Shout out to you and we appreciate you. took the detour with us. You've been along for the journey. like seven detours, you know, like we were on our way to Chicago, but I think we ended up in Salt Lake City and I don't know how, but yeah, it was really great. Jesus, what am I trying to say? Blue's Brothers. Blues Brothers. Yeah. I was gonna say blues. I mean, I can't say blues clues was, was on, was on my TV, but, but yeah, yeah. Blues, blues brothers. I'm down. I'm down with, yeah. So now this was an awesome conversation and, I hope to have you back on, sometime down the road, as this thing gets a little more established and we can dig into more about how you and the hacker versus continue to shake shit up. Sounds like a plan. Thanks so much for having me.