GTM After Hours
This is a safe space for the best GoToMarket execs, IC’s, and middle-managers in B2B SaaS. We've all failed and succeeded, so, of course we'll talk about both - and spill the tea on how we coped along the way. Join us for some real talk about how to survive, succeed, and thrive in GTM!
GTM After Hours
Sober Event Marketing: Going Beyond the Open Bar with Jen VanAntwerp
In this episode of the GTM After Hours podcast, Mark Bliss speaks with Jen VanAntwerp, founder of Sober in Cyber, about the challenges of networking in alcohol-centric environments and the importance of creating inclusive event experiences. They discuss the shift in alcohol consumption trends, innovative event ideas, and the need for community support networks. Jen shares her insights on marketing strategies for inclusive events and offers advice for event planners and marketers to foster a more welcoming atmosphere for all attendees.
Takeaways
- Many industry events revolve around alcohol, creating pressure for non-drinkers.
- Alternative beverage options can enhance inclusivity at events.
- Younger generations are less interested in drinking culture.
- Creating unique experiences can lead to better engagement at events.
- Event planners should consider the needs of all attendees.
- Inclusivity can lead to better business outcomes.
Sound Bites
"When I would go to a conference, when I would go to a work event, they all pretty much revolve around alcohol."
"How cool would it be to go to a work event where there was literally zero pressure to drink?"
"Having alternative options is awesome, especially ones that almost sneakily kind of look like what everybody else is drinking."
"Liquid Death is so good. It's just water."
"Their marketing is so good. It looks the part."
"It's the little things that make you feel special and unique."
Hi and welcome to the GTM After Hours podcast. This is a safe space for marketers, AEs, CSMs, and everyone else in this B2B SaaS growth hamster wheel. Grab a comfy blanket, your emotional support animal, and your go -to beverage of choice, and then join me for another exciting go -to -market conversation. All right, so if you've listened to our live episode of... At this point, think probably a month or so ago, our last live episode that we did on LinkedIn live, we were talking a lot about events and how people are just so incredibly lazy and center everything just around a bar and a happy hour. And I'm so excited for this podcast episode because I have Jen Van Antwerp, the founder of Sober in Cyber. to talk about just that. We get to learn, you know, her journey, why she built this nonprofit from the ground up. And then we get to talk about, you know, very real talk conversation of what can replace it. You know, why do we think that our industry is so overly focused on the open bar and what can come out of pivoting into a more accepting and we'll say creative way to do things. And so I'm excited about this conversation and Jen, thank you so much for joining me. I know we're going to get into a ton of stuff and you're going to tell me a lot about sober and cyber. But if you could give the listeners a little bit of information about about you, know, your day job and then why you started sober and cyber. That's probably a great way to kick us off. Yeah, absolutely. First, thank you so much for having me on, for broaching this topic. Even before I came on the show, you've been talking about this. So thank you for teeing that up and other conversations. Like Mark mentioned, my name is Jen Van Antwerp. I've been in marketing for a little over two decades, and I've worked in a few different industries. So I started my career as a baby marketer in automotive, and then was in automotive for about 13 years, and then moved over to healthcare. was in healthcare marketing for a while. The whole time my husband has been in cybersecurity and he kept telling me, I think you would love this. I think you should apply to these, that you could do this. And damn it, he was right. I had to tell him he was right. I love this industry. These people are my people. I absolutely love the community here. It's amazing. But one of the things that I had noticed across all those industries is that when I would go to a conference, when I would go to a work event, Very different industries, but the work events are almost exactly the same. They all pretty much revolve around alcohol. You know, for whatever reason, they all tend to be an open bar, a happy hour, a wine pairing, a whiskey tasting, whatever that case might be. So I've been sober for 23 years and I've found different ways to navigate those events or just to not go. because there are certain times even I've been sober a long, long time that I just don't feel great about being in an environment surrounded by alcohol. So I'll just opt out of attending some of those events. And that sucks because a lot of really good conversations happen at those types of networking events. Potential promotions come up there. I always joke that a close of a sale might start at a booth, but it ends up happening at the bar. So a lot of these great networking opportunities, I felt like either I was missing out on, and I would always kind of daydream, like how cool would it be to go to a work event where there was literally zero pressure to drink. No pressure to drink, where I'd never have to disclose my sobriety. Not that I'm shy about it, obviously, I'm wearing a shirt that literally says so, Ronit. So I've never been shy about talking about my. my journey or my struggles, but I always would daydream. Like how cool would it be to go to a party like that, to go to a work event where it just wasn't even a thing. And I didn't really see that happening very much. So a little over a year ago, I just thought, okay, well, damn it, I guess I'm just gonna do it. So initially the nonprofit started because these are the types of events that myself as a professional that I wanted to go to. And I just didn't really see a lot of them happening. Now the cool thing is that I'm starting to see the trend and the shift starting to happen. It seems like it's starting with younger generations too, that they're not as interested in the drinking, but it is still something that I think our conferences and our events are kind of laggards in kind of getting on this bandwagon. I it. I love the that take action, get shit done kind of mindset where you're like, this needs to change and then you just start the nonprofit. was like, damn it, okay. I guess I'll give this a shot. And I did have some of the cheat codes because being in marketing for as long as I have been, I've been able to get some stuff spun up quicker than I think somebody who didn't have that background or that experience would have been able to do. Let's, let's start our conversation and in in the, the despair realm of the current existence actually. my favourite place as an internal goth with an external cheerful demeanor. But there you go. this is, this is going to be, this is going to be, disturbed is the soundtrack, I think, to, to this area of the podcast. Love it. Okay. So, so tell me, tell me why, you know, or tell me about the struggle of going to those events. So, you know, before you started the nonprofit, you know, you're You're just a marketing exec. mean, hell, even baby marketer back in the day. What was that like? Tell me your experience walking up and you're like, wow, there's nothing here except the bar. there actually have been times when I've had to leave events because they didn't even have water. Like they did not even have accessible water without waiting in line at a bar for, you know, like 20 minutes if the line to the bar was massive. There was nowhere to just grab a water or a water fountain. So that was part of the struggle. But then part of it too is just feeling like you're on an island, like you're alone. Part of what we try to do with the nonprofit is they have a Discord server for sober folks within our space. So that way we can kind of do the buddy system. Because sometimes it just takes one other person at an event who might know, like, I'm trying to stay sober, or I just don't want to drink tonight, whatever the case might be, because people might not want to drink for whatever reason. Sometimes it just takes one other person to like, here, let me refill your sparkling water. Or always making sure that you have a glass in your hand. It has gotten, it started to get a little bit easier. And I will say that this community, the cybersecurity community has been overwhelmingly supportive and awesome. Anytime I started talking about it, it's really, really rare that I get the like, well, I just don't trust you if you're not drinking. I just can't trust you. And that did happen, unfortunately, a lot, like in the automotive industry, not as much in healthcare. Although I was surprised when I switched from automotive to healthcare, I thought, okay, well, this is an industry that's supposed to be healthier. Surely these events will be different, but nope, they were pretty much the same. Doctors can definitely put it back. Yeah, so the struggle comes from first just not being able to have access to alcohol -free beverages, and then some of the pressure of like, why aren't you drinking? And I think a lot of times people are, not trying to intentionally be shitty. They're just trying to be polite. I said, I wear it literally on my sleeve. I'll tell anyone that I don't drink, but not everybody does, nor should they have to. It should not be... somebody shouldn't have to sit there and explain over and over again why they don't want to have a drink at an event. So having alternative options is awesome, especially ones that almost sneakily kind of look like what everybody else is drinking. Yeah. Yes. Yeah. and it's funny because you mentioned there's a lot of reasons that somebody might be choosing not to drink that night. And some of them are, you know, like they're pregnant and they don't want the entire company to know they don't want people to be judging them or, know, maybe maybe they've had miscarriages in the past and they don't want people to to know early on. I mean, there's a whole lot of reasons that, you know, if you have some empathy and you think down that that path, you know, you're going to be like, OK, you know, we should definitely make sure there's an easily accessible mocktail here. But as as the the guy who had to get a pregnant colleague. Mocktails at the bar for her. Bless you. Bless you for those efforts. Well, you know, I was the only person who knew in the company. And the only reason I was told was because we were going out to a show and there was going to be a lot of alcohol. And you look at that and you're like, well, she shouldn't have even felt the need to have to tell me. And then I shouldn't have to be running some sort of like leverage style deception game. Yeah, like total, total special ops where I'm, you know, Hander to the bar. I'm like tell the bartender every time you give me a rum and coke. I need you to also give me this mocktail and So that way every time I came up sometimes I'd come up with drinks for other people come back with drinks for other people too But but yeah, I shouldn't have to be be like Tom Cruise and mission impossible Trying to protect somebody and in their choices, you know, we people should be able to simply make their choices for free and not everybody is is is open and you know not everybody wears it on their sleeve like you do some people are struggling quietly and we're putting them into a situation where you know it's it's going to permanently affect their life Right. And there is still a ton of stigma too in admitting that, especially if it's fresher, I think for me sometimes it might honestly be a little bit easier because I do have so many years of sobriety under my belt. But say I were just now getting sober and I'd worked in this industry already for several years and I'm surrounded by people who I used to drink with, who I used to get crazy with, and I'm going through challenges and struggles. I feel like it it would be tougher in that situation. Actually, my husband, so my husband isn't sober. He drinks on occasion, but he was on a diet. He was on keto. And when he was on keto, he just stopped drinking because it impacted him a lot faster than it did. And it kind of threw off the ketosis. So he went to his first conference without drinking after like two days. He just looked at me he was like, how do you do this all the time? I'm like, how in the hell do you do this? And I told him, I'm like, I think it's easier for me actually, because I can literally say I don't drink. And with him, these were people that he usually can have a whiskey with, or that were trying to bring him drinks that they know that he would like, like an old fashioned. And he had to keep explaining over and over again, whereas especially if I'm wearing this damn shirt, people don't even ask. That is kind of a superpower of where the garb is that people automatically they can tell like, okay, she's not going to want to have any alcohol. But for him, it was tough. And I think if you aren't in a place with a company where you feel secure enough or where there isn't enough as much stigma to like say, hey, this is something that I'm dealing with, then it's really, really tough. And from the marketing perspective, mean, if it's even one in 100 of your prospects that would have a strong negative reaction to your booth experience or your party experience, that is money you're leaving on the table. And I do understand, you're not in it. market to everyone. I'm not saying you know, I'm not having the ICP discussion here. How about how about that? But but what I am saying is, it is so important not to leave money on the table by making people feel like shit. Because if you make somebody feel like shit, they're not buying from you in any way, shape or form. And it doesn't cost a lot of money to put a mocktail on the menu and to have water easily except accessible. option because I'm also like, I'm very realistic. I don't expect that everybody is going to throw dry events forever. Like, I hate to this out loud, but I don't know if I would even really want to go to all those. Like some of them not. And I throw them and I know that they can be fun, but it's not for everybody. And I also don't try to, I'm not the type of person that expects everyone around me to change who they are or what they do just because I've had a struggle. But when I can see that there's, I'm going to try not to cry, but when I can see that there's a mocktail on a menu, it might sound goofy like, it's nothing, but it is so amazing. Like when I can see that before I go to an event, if I know that you've already considered that or had a different option, I feel so excited about going. I feel welcome, I feel like, okay, I'm gonna have, you know, I'm gonna have something that's there that's just for me. And that's honestly all I really need. Like there are still times when I'm not feeling super strong or confident about my sobriety and I might still opt not to go to something like that if I'm like, things are slightly tenuous, I'm just not gonna go. But the chances are much higher of me going, if I know, okay, there's something for me. there are going to be other people. And the cool thing about having a mocktail is that even if people aren't sober or trying not to drink, a lot of times people will try it or have it just because maybe they need to get up early for meetings the next day. Or this is party number three on their docket in Vegas and they've got two more that they need to make appearances at later in the night. they're like, okay, I just, I need to slow down, I need to chill. Having an alternative option is just fantastic. Yeah, my favorite addition that I ever put out was we had a cooler, easily accessible that had all sorts of Gatorade in it. Yeah. Brilliant. It, changes everything because, even the people that are drinking, you know, you're going to grab a Gatorade like, so it definitely helps. But honestly, what, pisses me off the most is just the laziness of we're going to have a bar with loud music and that's our event. And that's the thing that drives me absolutely nuts because you're not building any connection at all. Other than offering an open bar, like what other things are you doing? why? What is the why behind that? Yeah, is your why because we want to have free booze because we think it'll pack the place or is the why because we want people to actually be able to engage in conversation and make connections with each other. And you can do both. You can have engaging events. And I know you guys were talking about that a lot too with being able to have some type of an experience, but then other places where people can go to get a little bit outside of the noisier aspects and be able to still have that conversation that I mean, that's the reason why we're trying to have these events is so that we can all stay connected human to human, especially when we're all gathering in a similar place face to face. It's goofy to have the entire thing be standing room only. Maybe you get like a tiny miniature burger that's cold and you're standing there and... trying to hear what people are saying without them spitting on you because in, you know, COVID era that's not fun either. So yeah, it's just crazy. Yeah, lot of what you say. Can you repeat that? It's like, OK. Right, the music doesn't have to be that loud, y 'all. And plus I can I can hear some DJ paying playing techno remixes of top 40 anywhere. What what I'm looking for is something unique, you know, like like is it a jazz band or something like I'd go to watch a jazz band for a little while like. Something like that is fun. And especially if you've got a little area where you can get off to the side where it's quiet and you're building, you know, conversation. I don't know. That works to me. I love, I think you're doing something with mental health hackers. It'll be in the past for people that are listening to this, but, you're, doing a, sober sip and paint party, right? Yes, yes. I'm sure a lot of you folks have been to those paint and sip parties where they'll be either at a bar or one of those venues and the instructor will teach you how to paint, you know, a lady holding an umbrella in the rain or whatever the whatever the case might be and everybody's drinking. So it's going to be like that, but you'll have your non -alcoholic beverage of choice. It's a virtual event. So if you can figure out how to travel back in time, then once you're done solving on problems of the world, come to our sober sip and paint party. We're also the next in -person thing that we're doing is we're teaming up with Blue Team Con in Chicago in September. And with the Shmoo Group, we're gonna have an alcohol -free board games room. We're gonna have a DJ there spinning some nice lo -fi beats and some board games. And they're gonna have, I think, some appetizers and mocktails. It's gonna be awesome. So I love that... And they had actually, Blue Team Khan reached out to me. I'm not sure how they initially heard about the nonprofit, but I'm excited that more and more conferences are going to start having spaces like this or just options like that. It's amazing. I love that, but I hope they mean real board games. Like I don't want to see like Monopoly or anything there. No, no, no, we're gonna have some real. And I'm actually, need to put out a call for volunteers to help run. I'd love to have like a Magic the Gathering. I'd love to have some like real strategy type games and some people to run some of those too. It's gonna be awesome. Cause we'll have several hours. So we've got enough time to, think, build a good game. People, people can, people can bring, bring some of the good stuff out, you know, and as I speak, I've got, you know, board game starter pack of Katana and munchkin behind me. So God. Come to Chicago. Yes. That's that is that is the starter pack right there. Those are those are gateway board games is how I always describe them. a mix of some like strategy games, some co -op games, different stuff like that. So it'll be fun. love it and i always wonder with with the the painting ones it's it's always something honestly lame like it's it's like here's a fall foliage painting and i'm like okay that's terrible no no i i want something like like like your mug with like the the slytherin logo and stuff like like give me give me something super nerdy like you it's it's star wars versus star trek and you've got You've got a Star Wars painting over here. Then, you know, which is cool. Lightsaber vibe. Or you've got your Star Trek one over here. Like, I don't know. I want to see like a battle and then the best painting wins, you know. I love that. Okay, so maybe for the next one. I'll keep that in mind. I like that. The Octagon of Death painting edition. Who will win? crap. Also, I hate it when We seem very exclusionary like when When we're approving who gets in and we're not making it seem and I get it We all have limited budgets, but we need to be very clear that we're inviting people's plus ones to come out. A, it builds relationships. And B, people are more likely to come out after hours, like especially at a conference that's at a location. You know, people bring their plus ones, they are going on vacation. And so if you can say, here's a great experience, and you can experience it with your plus one, if your plus one is there. That's a great way to build a relationship with a prospect. Absolutely. I love the, I think you said experience several times in there. It really is all about, like there are so many people who've been to so many of these events that are just the same like carbon copy events over and over again. And if you can, you know, wow them with an experience or something different or bring them to a venue or a space that they've always wanted to go visit and just haven't had a chance to do that. with the F and B minimums, like the F and B minimums are the same. So one cool thing about having an event where you do have either multiple mocktails or all mocktails is that you can end up spending that on the food. So instead of having like, okay, well, what are the cheapest things? Because I know our bar tab is gonna be massive. You can really think, okay, what are the most delicious, amazing food items that you can pick or find a good balance of the two, right? Like maybe not, you top shelf liquors, having some alternative options and having some actual things that people want to eat so they don't have to leave your party early and go through the drive through at Taco Bell. Yeah, there's this bar in Mandalay Bay that every black cat, it's always a different company that runs a party in that bar and you have to walk past that bar to get back to your room. So you probably can think of this, thinking of the bar now in your head. And it's like, they all basically run the same party. It's a deafening DJ. There's some lighting. depending on the sponsor, it's green or blue or purple or whatever. And that is it. It's a bar with loud music and that that is the entire extent of it. And I just keep thinking like, everybody who goes there is still going to leave and go eat. So if you could feed people, maybe they're going to be there a little longer. And if you don't, you know, make them deaf. Yep. And maybe give them a place to, you know, sit down for a couple of seconds because a lot of them have been standing or walking around all day. We went, we had an event at RSA and one of the ladies said like, this was the best event ever. And you know, I'm still learning what makes a great, you know, dry event. So I'm like, okay, well, what did you love about it? said, I had good food, really good drinks, and I had somewhere to sit and I could actually hear the people who were talking to me. I'm like, okay, well that's All the stuff that I wanna do too, so glad to hear that's kinda, you know, what other people want as well. That's nice. So good. I actually for a cyber company, we took a little bit of a different tactic. And so in a past life, I did this thing where we marketed the anti event, where it was a VIP style event, but it was only up in one of the like the giant suites, you know, Vegas Hotel giant suite. This thing had like a pool table room and everything like it was Was that the no boo? I know somebody on your show was talking about the no boo, like private invite. Or was it a sepulchre? marketing was pretty much you got a spot on the couch. You know, it's gonna be. Yeah, yeah. And the, and the people that you attract are very different than the bar hoppers. you know, those, these folks, they, they, they want to be there. They want to sit down. They want to engage and have conversations. And it, definitely. know vibe has a lot to do. with how people are picking where they're going. And there's something to be said about doing something different than what nine out of 10 other vendors are doing. Yes. Yeah, a little more low key. And it can still be really, really fun and very engaging. One of the things that has surprised me as I've been throwing these different events is what that mix looks like, because it's really eclectic. with a lot of our, when you're planning different field events or marketing events, you're trying to focus on what's your target ICP. A lot of the people that I want to come to my events are anonymous, not just cybersecurity anonymous, but like anonymous, anonymous. So how do you peel back those layers to figure out who you'd even want to invite? Right? So I tried to make it more general and open. Everyone is able to come. They're open to everybody. But then as a marketer, had no idea initially who was going to walk through those doors. Like I know like this is what a person in recovery looks like for me when I look in the mirror, but I had no idea. like what that mix was going to be. And it really is so cool and so eclectic. And there are folks who say like, these are really the only events that I'm going to because I know that there's not going to be any pressure, there's not going to be any issues. So when people are coming to these events, it's like this really cool mix of like practitioners and C -suite executives and a lot of people who have been through the gamut of the events and you know, making those decisions of, you know, am I going to drink? Am I not going to drink? And have gone through their journeys and their struggles. And it's just so cool to see the different types of people that come in and seeing them mix and talk to each other at this party that normally they probably wouldn't have been to the same event together is really, really awesome. It's really fun. think there's a generational element at play here as it becomes more and more accepting and as more and more leaders are comfortable spending budget to create those offshoots? Yeah, it definitely feels like that. I feel like there's this wave and I think I've been sober a long time. So when I first got sober, when it came to like alcohol free drinks, it was pretty much Odools and that was just about it. And like, I didn't even like beer when I drank. Like I had a goal. I wanted to get messed up and beer was not going to do it for me. So I was not a fan of Odools, but there are so many new drinks on the market and like alcohol free spirits and just the The the taste is so, so, so good. And it seems like, like I was saying earlier, the younger generation, there are some people who reach out and they say like, hey, I'm not sober. You know, I've never gone through 12 step or recovery or anything like that. I just have never drank. And then one second that kind of breaks my brain a little because I had such an issue with it that I was like, you what? You've never, I'm like, no, I just never wanted to. And that is so amazing because I think of like how much of the pain and the shame and the struggles that I caused my family, the things that I could have avoided if I was like, yeah, I just never wanted to. Like everybody has their path and that definitely wasn't my path and I wouldn't change it for the world because I feel like the struggles that I went through have made me a more empathetic person. how... that there are a lot of younger folks that are like, yeah, no, it's just not for me. I tried it once, I didn't like the flavor and I just don't want to be around it. That's amazing. And because that trend has kind of started, there are a lot more of those types of alcohol-free beverages on the market. It has made them unfortunately more expensive to the point where sometimes they're like the same price as something with booze in it. I'm like, come on. But I'll... I'll take it. If that's what it takes to have more options that are delicious and not just a bunch of sugar, then I'm all about it. Well, and in liquid death. my God, I love Liquid Death so much. Like their marketing is so good. When I first heard about it, it was at a concert because I love going to live shows, seeing live music. And it was at a bar and I kept seeing people drinking it. And so finally I went to the bartender and I was like, what is that Liquid Death? Is that an energy drink? Because it was like 10 o 'clock at night and people were still slamming this. He said, no, it's just water. So that was initially, now everybody knows about it, but initially it was kind of a... sneaky way again to like be there. Nobody would ask me if I wanted to drink something because I was sitting there just drinking out and sipping on my Liquideath. Those are metal. They're art. They're branding everything. Kudos. So, so, so good. about it at a concert too. At a concert in Chicago. Seeing Mr. Wives. Fabulous band to those listening if you haven't checked them out. But it was. Yeah, I asked for a water and they handed me that and I'm like no, no, I said water. I like hollering over and she's like no, no, that's the water that we have. That's water. And I just thought it was the coolest thing because it looks the parts. And sometimes that's all I mean, that's the entire idea of mocktails, right? Like you make people feel a part of things, but you know, you're catering to their individual tastes. my god, there's a burnt orange peel in my drink or there's like a sprig of a plant. I don't even know what it is, but I'm so excited about it right now. It's just the little things like that that you're like, I'm one of the big kids. It might be a little bit silly, but it does. mean, it feels so special and so like unique. I wish I could make them. I do need to figure out how to do more. mixology stuff myself. I love drinking them. I just don't really know how to make them very well. get there there's like 30 million youtube tutorials so yeah i'm sure you'll figure it out And I'm sure there are TikToks. don't have TikTok, but I see people send me stuff all the time about, this is this new mocktail, not new mocktail. Ooh, the TikTok thing. We may have to digress on that offline because I have opinions, but I do want to go back to the entire focus on the generational aspect because I think what's also happening and why more and more budget can go towards these options and more experiential events. versus the traditional happy hour at a bar and nothing else is because the younger millennials and Gen Z folks are coming into these buyer committees and they're getting higher and higher up in the organization. They have much more influence in the sales cycle. And so yeah, you might have the whiskey tasting that you know you're targeting. the VP and above, you know, that's where you're, you know, you're targeting your CISOs, for example, you know, upscale, and it's all going to be like top shelf stuff. But your Gen Z and younger millennial folks, they're going to stop it from ever getting to the CISO if you don't make them included. And so I, I think it's interesting that, you know, their viewpoint on alcohol generationally has I think shifted so much so fast. And we're not going to get into California sober on this podcast, but their, their vibes, everything has shifted. And so when your marketing to the entire buying committee, now that has to be a part of your event strategy. You know, I mean, I like to think everybody's altruistic and they want it as a part of their event strategy because it's the right thing to do and it's just genuinely good and will help people. But if that doesn't get you and and you've got a CEO that doesn't care about that, then here's the way that you get an extra three to 5000 is you point out the Gen Z and millennial folks that are a part of your buying committee and then show them a study of how I think it's what is it one in three Gen Z folks don't don't drink. Yeah, which is very vastly different from, think one of the stats from a Tines, there was a Tines survey on mental health. It was from back in like 2022. And at that time, think it was like, I'm trying to remember what the stat was, but it was a pretty high stat. It was like 13 or 14%, maybe that. consumed three or more alcoholic beverages every single day. It's like three or more alcoholic beverages every single day. was like over 10%, which was huge. And that was just focused specifically on InfoSec industry. So yeah, it's definitely the tides are shifting and that younger generation is on both sides of that table. They're both on that buying decision side, but then they're also in that event planning side too. So they're speaking up and saying, why don't we have... a mocktail, why don't we have an alternative option? And it usually is a no -brainer. I think if there are executives or people who are really pushing against it, like actively pushing against it, that probably says a little more about them than it does about the business decisions because I'm just having one alternative option. If anything, it'll make the cost a little bit less if you're not buying as much of that high -end alcohol. And there are a lot of people that normally would opt for an alcoholic beverage that instead will reach for a mocktail if it's there, if it's there as an option. So how do you get the message out? Building this nonprofit from the ground up, how are you getting this information out there? How are you partnering with brands that are accepting and open? Maybe there are more leaders in this space. How do you tie into that? Yeah, we've we've partnered. Honestly, we have some great like community support partners is what I call them. We have Mind Over Cyber, Mental Health Hackers, Diana Initiative, or some of the organizations that we've recently started partnering with just to get the word out. And a lot of those are organizations whose missions dovetail really, really nicely with what we do because that focus on mental health, especially around conferences is what Mind Over Cyber does. And it's just, I mean, it makes perfect sense. A lot of times we're already in an industry where there are a lot of stressors from all over the place. It's high stakes. There are a lot of things at risk. There are a lot of people working in the stock where, you know, when time, you know, when things are challenging, they're working like nonstop. So it's a stressful industry. And then, when people have anxiety related issues around conferences or crowds or situations like that, it's all just adding on. alcohol oftentimes is used as a way to like de -stress or for people to just try to be okay in those crowded situations. So the organizations that we've tried to partner with on those messages are ones that, you know, their missions are really similar. They're all about trying to make sure make sure that we're focused on our mental health, you know, making sure that people, whether there are conferences or working in this industry, have other coping mechanisms that they can use. And then getting the word out, it's just like a, I kind of look at it like my own little baby startup and I work with a lot of different startups. I've done everything from partnering with other organizations, a lot of social media. I've done some PR to try to spread the word that way. When I started, I actually started the website first and then a month or so after that, I started the Discord community and I had the Discord community kind of growing really organically for the first few months. And then we started to see a lot of pickup when we had our first in -person event. And then with that, I've got an email newsletter that I try to have go out once a month, although it's always like, in my off time, which lately has been no off time. try to get the word out as much as we can on all those different channels. You've got a lot of go -to -market professionals listening here. You got your sales, marketing, and CS teams, a lot of managers, mid -level folks that are listening here. What do you want to tell them? Give your pitch, not just partnering with your nonprofit for those who are in cyber specifically, but definitely give a plug there, but also What are the things you want to tell them to create that more open and inviting and accepting experience? Yeah, it honestly doesn't take all that much. Just considering people that won't want to just drink alcohol in the early stages of your planning, whether it's like a big conference or just a work outing, because there might be people that work for your company that are either sober or trying to live a more sober lifestyle that haven't really spoken about that publicly. So just think about it, make it an official part of your planning process. If you have an event checklist or brainstorming session, have it as a line item for every event. Like what are our alternative options gonna be? Like what are the options? And if you do decide to have some mocktails or other options like that, make sure you talk about that publicly. Like have that either on a menu or as a little asterisk in your emails. Let people know about that so that folks like me or other folks who are reading that email about your event know, okay, you're taking this into consideration already this early. That's freaking awesome. Like I know that this is gonna be something that I can get behind and I can attend. So just thinking about it early, making it part of the official planning process. It's honestly not that big of a lift to throw in a single option. And then obviously I'm... here representing the nonprofit. So if anybody has questions about how to do that, feel free to reach out to me. We throw events during larger cybersecurity conferences, but I could always help walk people through the steps to do something at a smaller event if it's not something that I can physically attend myself. Just all about trying to, like I said, increase the alternative options out there, whether it's a totally alcohol -free event or something with just a mocktail or some other. experiential option there for people to enjoy. It doesn't take a lot. It's not that hard. I think the biggest hurdle, the biggest challenges, if people have never personally struggled or loved someone who's personally struggled, it's just not even a thought in your mind. It's not because people intentionally try to, you know, exclude or, you know, have these events a certain way. I do love that you use the word lazy. I think that might be part of it too. Like if it's never something that you've had to think about, it's not even a thought. So hopefully this switches on a little light bulb and you're like, crap, okay, maybe this is something that I should think about or at least consider. you also got to look at what do you actually want out of this event? And so again, if you've got a bar where people are just in bar hopping mode and they're getting trashed over a lot of music that you can't have a conversation to, what is the goal? Like, what do you actually get out of that event? You know, as an event marketer, like, what do you gain from that? I don't think anything. Like there's there's no takeaway. mean, maybe they have a positive opinion of your brand, but if you're one of three brands that had a party that they dropped by and had some drinks at, you really don't even get that. So got to give me something else. get some new names to add into your like lead, air quote, lead nurture list. But if people aren't having a good experience at your event, they're not going to keep going to the events. So if you can find ways to facilitate people having those connections and conversations themselves, then the next time you throw an event, they're going to want to go back. Well, you've run marketing at quite a few steps along the way. How do you approach this conversation internally, maybe with an event manager who has never, let's say has never broadened their horizons or an executive team that just wants to wash, rinse and repeat the lazy shit that they did in the past. How have you approached that in your day job roles? Yeah, well, thankfully I've never really come up against a lot of struggle when it comes to, you know, even broaching the idea of their subject. I think part of it is because I have been really open about my sobriety for a long, long time. So I think they know what they're getting when they ask me to assist with events. But it honestly isn't even really like a... hardcore conversation of, listen, let's sit down. We need to, let's have a talk. We need to have a talk. It's never that serious. It's more just like I said, having that seed planted early on in the conversation and just bringing up like what are some options gonna be? What are our alternative options gonna be from the very beginning? So it's maybe I've just been really lucky and that it's never been a fight. I've never had to. If it was, I think I wouldn't be in right place, to be quite honest. If it ever came to the point where someone was like that, that stuck on doing the same type of event, I don't think it would be the type of like employer or client that I would have felt comfortable working for anyways. So what do you tell somebody, you know, maybe there's an event marketer listening to this who's trying to broaden their horizons. How would you suggest they position this internally? I would start with a small ask of just having one option that's not soda, like one mocktail. And if they're doing any sort of co -marketing with other companies, like a partner company, a cool thing that they can do is have it named for the company, give them a chance to make a fun mocktail name that weaves in their product or their service. That may make it a little bit more exciting or fun or approachable. just, I'd say start with that. Start with something kind of small. And you could even kind of take a quick impromptu survey either at the event or right after if they gauge interest in the different types of options that were there at the event and see if it's something that they don't have the data points for yet and their manager really wants them to have those data points first. They could always survey their audience that are potentially going to attend the events and ask them what they would want to see at these different events. Because I guarantee even people who do drink on occasion would be open to having a mocktail at their event. Love it. And how does this scale outside of events? You know, we're we're talking right now events, but even like ABM and gifting plays are usually really heavily centered around. Let me send you a bottle of tequila. without even knowing much about that individual's history or knowing if that's something that would be horribly offensive or even worse, triggering. Like, God forbid. How crappy would that be if you were like, for your ABM program, you just got somebody to fall off the wagon. Like, congratulations. That's probably not gonna win you a good client. Yeah, just thinking outside of that Jim Beam box. Just thinking outside, I know Jim Beam's not a... probably not alcohol, they'd give it a long time. So I'm not quite sure what those high -end ones are, we have so many brilliant creative minds in this industry across the board. There are so many more things that we could be doing. Just, like I said, survey the folks, see what else they might want. There's also tons of social posts and Reddit posts where if you just look up like, know, swag ideas. People are giving all their opinions. Everybody has an opinion about swag and about gifting. So there's tons of good OSINT that you can do just from, you know, searching around on social and Reddit for a while to see how many other things are out there that you could gift other than alcohol. I love that. And I also think from a leadership perspective, when you're getting the team together, you know, it doesn't happen often now with everybody being remote, but when you have your off sites with the team, maybe build it around an experience, not just hanging out at the bar, like give, give some, options there because your, team, particularly those earlier in their career are going to feel very uncomfortable. speaking up and sharing with leadership where they might have struggles. yeah, my favorite thing is to do some sort of unique memory that nobody's ever like had done before. I did an offsite in New Orleans and it was so fun. We did this like Voodoo graveyard tour thing. my god, that's so cool. of it being like a bar after dinner like now the tour did stop at a bar because it's Nola and that's going to happen. Yeah, yeah, yeah, but the the entire thing was around the ghost tour. And, you know, the bar aspect was. was secondary and doing things like that where, you know, getting people together, but it doesn't have to be specifically centered around a bar. mean, we did, we did a SCO at my last place where it was, first of all, I, bowling is lame, but we did. Yeah. you, I do not like it. But also I'm a little germaphobic, so the thought of people eating nachos and sticking their finger in a place that I'm gonna stick my finger makes me wanna vomit. I think bowling is lame. And I was I was on I was on a bowling team all the way through middle school. So like my younger me is rolling his eyes right now. But it was it was at this like like bowling alley like arcade hybrid. And everybody received not just the other drink tickets, but you also receiving cash to go play the video games and that and you know some of the the best relation you know our our mutual friend Bronwyn and I we you know we were playing this Ninja Turtles game with with our friend and colleague Brian it's like you know we've we've probably spent an hour at that machine and you you want to talk about bonding you know across different yeah yeah and it's and it's a fun It's a fun story and it's a memory and it's things that I think over indexing on what people will remember and how they tell the story of your event of your offsite of your sco of your, you know, trade show event, like any of those things. How are they going to tell the story when they get home? And if you think about that and you think about in that context, it makes your life so much easier because if the story is It was really loud and I had a few beers. That's not much of a story. Yeah, Stephen King wouldn't write that. No, whereas we went on a haunted ghost tour, voodoo tour, or I just played indoor golf here in Arizona, which I didn't even know that they had indoor goofy golf, but those are some newer facilities that just opened. And it's so much fun. Like even in the heat, we can find different things that we can do in, know, indoors, outdoors. There are so many, so many different options there. I love the thought of like, how will someone explain their experience? What's the story that they will tell? That's so cool. I love I love looking at it that way. That's awesome. away from the, you know, altruistic commentary and it turns it into, you know, I think it puts the emphasis rightfully so on the connection that was made. And it's the same thing with your prospects, you know, what, what story are they going to tell? And if it's not a good one, then you need to revisit your event planning. And it's probably more important with your team too, because If you're talking one in a hundred event attendees or maybe a tire, I don't, I don't know the stats exactly, but whatever percentage of your events attendees, if you've got hundreds of events attendees or even thousands, you may not think about it as, you know, too much of a priority. But if you have 10 people on your team and one of them is sober and struggling and you don't even know it. Like that's so damaging. It will, it will ruin their perception of your team, your leadership and your company probably forever. Like it's really hard to come back from that. Right. And it might not even be something that you even realized was an issue if it wasn't something that you thought about. I had a great experience with the gentleman. I had a booth at Wild West Hackenfest and a gentleman came up and was speaking with me. He wasn't sober himself, but he said, you know, one of my employees recently got sober and I'm just trying to think of different things that we can do. Cause I never realized how many of our after work events were just going to the bar until she told me that she had just gotten sober and didn't really want to do that. And I was like, well, what can I do now to help her feel more welcome? And I said, well, if she felt comfortable enough telling you that she was quitting drinking, ask her. Like what types of events would be fun for you? What kind of stuff would you enjoy? If somebody's gotten to the point where they feel comfortable enough to even disclose that or talk about it, talk to them, ask them. We talk about like asking our prospects all the time, like actually. speaking with them directly instead of just guessing and doing conjectures and like, I'll think my gut tells me blah, blah, blah. Your gut's probably wrong. Talk to your freaking prospect. So talk to your employees and figure out what types of things they would want to do for a fun outing, for fun event. it's funny. We were talking about like, you know, talk to your customers, talk to your team members, like actually have these conversations. I was just on a call and, and we were, we were discussing, effectively that, you know, lot of this, how do we, build these walls up where, unless we've gotten full authority to share a case study and, make it as all, you know, ultra professional as possible. then we're not having the conversations with our customers. And the reverse is probably more important. Like, I don't care about the case study, but you give me, you give me 60 seconds of a customer success manager talking about a problem that their client, their unnamed client just solved. And you put that up on LinkedIn. That's going to do way more for your brand than the formal case study that you waited six to 12 months to get. know, it's the same thing with the, with the team. You know, you don't have to wait for your formal, you know, employee NPS survey at the end of the year, or, or, or we're going to do a three 60 now so I can get your feedback. Like just fucking ask like. talk to people. You know, people are so cool. We're all so weird and so quirky and everybody has so many cool little layers and things about them that you just had no freaking idea. It's just fun to talk to people and to get to know people better. just like don't assume, don't think, just talk. Just talk to them. Let them tell you, because yeah, people are fun and weird. We have the onus on us to though. We've got a we've got a show that we're weird and fun and bring our authentic selves to work and I think for those who are watching this on video, like you can see like the giant, you know, barrage of stuff in my background. I've got paintings. I've got books. I've got a tracks. I've got an old jukebox. There's some local art, there's all sorts of things. And it's because, you know, this is my personality. You know, a my personality, like I'm a little extra on everything. That's first and foremost. You know, this, this is maximalism at its best, I think behind me. But it's also there's things behind me that somebody can connect with. Somebody can ask about they're like, you you like board games, I see, I see Katan behind you, like And we can have a conversation. And I think so many of us try to be so professional and it especially goes into our backgrounds for zoom calls, or we'll use like the, company where it's like the branded logo, fake background. And then nobody knows who you are. Nobody knows anything about you and there's nothing to ask about or connect with. You also love Elvira? I also love Elvira. And I think behind you are those are those ribbons? Do you do like marathons and stuff? yeah, like little, did one marathon. That was enough. I do more like 5Ks, 10Ks, the smaller, the smaller ones are more my jam. The other ones just like take way too long to train. fellow crazy people who like to get up and run, all of them, that stands out. That's something that's like a beacon to your people. And so I think we need to do a better job of that. Even from a sales standpoint, if you've got your prospects on the line and they're seeing things that allow them to connect with you, That's way better than that stupid logo background. The logo background does nothing. They already know where you work and they already have enough name ID. Otherwise I wouldn't be on the call. But if you, as the representative of your brand can connect with them in an authentic way, that's going to do a heck of a lot for you. And so, yeah, I think it's part of the onus is on us. You know, we, need to create opportunities for people to get to know us better and, you know, stop hiding behind. the wall of professionalism that we've built up. Yep, yep. And that definitely carries over into events as well because we're bringing our human selves no matter where we're going. Love it. Well, I always like to give the guest the last word and the prompt that I always use. I want you to give advice to rookie marketer Jen early in her career. So what would you say to her and to anybody else? Poor thing. Don't do it, run. No, I'm just kidding. I'm just kidding. I love marketing. It's in my blood. So what advice would I give to my younger self? out in their careers and they're listening to this episode because they want to see a little bit of light in the darkness. Yeah, I would say trust my journey, revel in the mistakes. The mistakes have been plentiful, but they have also really taught me, like I didn't go to school for marketing. I did end up getting a degree in it, but it was way after I'd been in the field for a while. And so I had all of that, like that crappy old imposter syndrome and the self doubt and it still rears its ugly head, but trust, trust your journey. And being a generalist in this space for the longest time, I thought that was a detriment. I thought that was something that I should be ashamed of, like, no, I should have specialized until I realized that that is my superpower when it comes to helping startups. Being able to do a little bit of everything is perfect for an organization that needs to do everything very affordably. don't realize that the journey really is where it's supposed to be. I guess just believe in yourself little Jennifer. Just believe. Don't doubt yourself. Everything's gonna be fine. And follow as cheesy as it sounds. The thought for sober and cyber was something that had started invading my brain a lot longer before I actually took any action. And I analyzed it, overanalyzed it, and just ruminated on it way too long. I could have been making a difference a lot sooner if I just stopped trying to make it perfect and just freaking did it. Just start walking in that direction. Even if it's wrong, you're at least like going, starting to go somewhere. And if it's in the wrong way, you're like, no, okay, let's, you know, let's refocus. Let's do like 10 different things. But you know, little Jennifer has a lot to learn. So maybe she needs all those pieces of advice.