GTM After Hours

What B2B Marketers Can Learn from the Fitness Industry with Sammi Norman

• Mark Bliss • Season 1 • Episode 21

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In this engaging conversation, Mark Bliss and Sammi Norman explore the importance of authenticity in branding and marketing. Sammi shares her journey from being a fitness coach to a marketing strategist, emphasizing the need for personal connection and trust in marketing efforts. They discuss the evolving definition of professionalism, the significance of influencer marketing, and the role of video content in building engagement. Sammi also recounts a cautionary tale about a videographer now known as "F'ing Tony," that highlights the challenges of working with contractors. The conversation concludes with insights on overcoming imposter syndrome and the importance of pushing oneself in the pursuit of success.

Takeaways

  • Authenticity is key in personal and professional branding.
  • Taking action towards your goals is crucial for growth.
  • Building trust requires showing your true self.
  • Influencer marketing is about connection, not just promotion.
  • Video content should feel relatable and authentic.
  • Continuous learning and adaptation are essential in marketing.
  • Imposter syndrome is common, but it shouldn't hold you back.
  • Checking in with contractors can prevent miscommunication.
  • Personal connections drive customer loyalty and engagement.
  • Embrace your uniqueness to stand out in the market.

Sound Bites

"Be unapologetically you."
"Go harder, push yourself."
"You have to just go for it and not think of how am I gonna look."
"You have to make the move even if it's the tiniest step forward."
"You have to carve out an innovation fund."
"You have to try those new things and they're scared of."
"You have to be really focused on who your ideal customer is."
"People want that kind of connection, that humanity."
"It's okay to acknowledge the fact that you're putting a plug."
"Fucking Tony."
"If I'm gonna do something, I'm gonna be really fucking good at it."

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Hi everyone, welcome to GTM after hours. This is to be a really fun episode because I'm joined by Sammy Norman who according to her LinkedIn profile leads with heart and sarcasm first and foremost. So you know, it's going to be a good episode because there's going to be so many great David Spade like sarcastic jokes that we're going to flip in here. But she's a brand, creative. director, branding strategist, overarching, just marketing guru in the fitness and wellness space. And so we're going to have a great conversation about how marketers in just generic B2B and software and everything else are kind of missing on some elements that folks in the fitness and wellness space have just been doing for years. so, uh, Sammy, welcome to the show. Uh, maybe give the listeners that 30,000 foot overview. of your career because you've had kind of a cool one. I have, yeah. So when people ask how I got into marketing, I always say that it was kind of an accident. I started off, you know, I left school at 16. I have a GED. I left scholarships on the table. Do not recommend. Those would have been super helpful to have. But I chose to go a different route and I was really tired of being in school and I wanted to work. So I left school and got my GED and started to just work. full time, right off the bat. So because I left my scholarships and I didn't have any money and my parents couldn't afford to send me to college, I decided that I would go into fitness. My goal was to go for like physical therapy type things. That's what I wanted to do, but again, I couldn't afford the college. So I thought, work as a coach for a while and save up money and go from there. Which didn't happen, obviously we'll get into that too. so I started coaching and I am very much one of those people like if I'm going to do something, I'm gonna be really fucking good at it. So I got all of the certs, all of the education, as much knowledge as I could get. And I was actually a performance coach. So I had sports nutrition, general nutrition, know, Olympic lifting. I had all of that education and all of those certs. So I was really fucking good at what I did. But I didn't want to coach anymore. I did it for eight years. And not that I don't love coaching, it's always going to be a part of my heart because I like to see people gain the confidence in themselves. But it just got to that point where I was not happy with what I was doing. And it was like, you know, if this is a career, like I don't want to be miserable in my career. So I was really fortunate to have a friend that I worked for at the time as one of his coaches. And he had had a side conversation with me just that there were some gaps in his business that he needed filled specifically in design and in marketing. So I was able to kind of tip toe into that. Again, because I was, I was a freelance coach for so long. when social media was absolutely nothing, that's when I started social media. I was an online coach in that era that people were just starting to emerge. So I had to learn all of that myself. which gave me again, the opportunity to kind of work my way into marketing. And that's kind of where I've been ever since I found out that I'm pretty damn good at it. And it's something that I really enjoy. I love it. And it's interesting that you talked about getting in early into this marketing through social media because the industry you were in was early into social media, right? Because it has a really significant B2C play. And oftentimes B2C is always there before the B2B brands ever catch up. Yeah, yeah, it was, you know, that time I remember seeing other fitness coaches that were promoting like, Where it's like the Excel spreadsheet workouts, you know, and workout, like workout templates and things like that. And then meal plans, you know, before any of this was ever available online, before you could have an app where you could get your workouts and shit. Like that's where all of this started. And it was literally just figuring out how to showcase it. Like, Hey, I'm a coach and I have this information and this is how you can pay me. that, especially for coaches at that time, like all these baby coaches that were just starting to emerge and now you look at it and they've got millions of followers and it's like I remember when you were nothing and it's so cool you know because you go back and make like they make jokes all the time like if you go back at their old content like it was shit everybody's was because like it was not a thing at the time and now like you said it's companies do not survive if they don't have some sort of presence online. Well, and I think too, and something I really want to dig into with you, you work a lot on kind of that influencer marketing side as just the nature of the beast in the space that you're in. But that's an area where a lot of, you know, SaaS marketers don't even play. And so, you know, you're early there. How would you recommend people approach jumping into something like you did with social and like you're currently doing with influencer marketing where it's new to them. And they're feeling really awkward and scared about doing something new. It's so funny, I'm talking to a group of high schoolers on Thursday and as I was writing my speech I had this kind of story pop up. So I'll share that just to give a little bit of context. Have you heard of Cured Nutrition, the CBD company? No. Okay, they, it's a really cool company. Again, CBD has been like ever growing the last few years and just continues to get bigger. Yeah, you know, and it's incredible. It really is. But that's a whole nother conversation for another day. But they make, you know, gummies and focus, you know, and pain stuff. It's incredible. The owner, the CEO, Joseph Shi, Shi. I had the opportunity to meet him a few years ago and he shared this story about, you know, won't go into the whole thing, but basically he was having a conversation with his therapist a few years ago about how miserable he was, you know, and the guy before all of this was a, an engineer and auto space or aerospace engineer. Right. So he was successful and he was fucking miserable. And like, you know, to the point where he tried to end his life and he was talking to his therapist about. You know, he couldn't do this because, you know, what would they think? And he couldn't go here because, you know, how would he be seen? And his therapist hands him this card or has a business card and write something on the back of it and he hands it to Joe and it says permission. And he says, you're asking for permission to live the life that you want. Here's your permission. and he still has that card. Joe says he still has that card and it's framed on his desk when he goes into his office. But that was like. Every time I think about that, that's where my mind goes, is that you're asking for permission from people that you shouldn't give a shit about. Not that you shouldn't care about people, but what their opinions are is none of your business. So if you want to do something, it doesn't have to be a perfect plan, but you have to make the move. Take, even if it's the tiniest step forward, you have to just go for it and not think of, How am gonna look while I'm doing this? What are they gonna think? But what is your end goal? If you wanna be here, think about this space. Don't think about like this, you how am I gonna be seen in this moment? Forget about it and just fucking move forward. love that. And I think structurally, what a lot of marketers miss out on is you can do that very early in your budgeting process by carving out like an innovation fund, or something where it gives you the automatic authority to try new things. And if the entire business is bought into trying new things, then you don't have that worry other than am I going to look stupid if I'm the one on camera? Mm-hmm. Yeah. Yeah for sure and it's it's like you said it's it's so easy to make that move and again like I've I've been fortunate to I Say fortunate I've been fortunate to be a kind of on that ground level where you know, I might not have the I Call it fancy pants like the fancy pants business organization type thing, you know, I've always been small business. I've always been like founders, I've always been very tight-knit kind of thing. But all of these things still apply to the big businesses, but they see it differently. You know, they're afraid to look a certain way or to try something new or, you know, try a different trend because it might not fit what they've been doing. But again, like if your goal is to grow and to be better or be different, then you have to try those new things and that they're scared of. love that. And I think part of it is you're trying new things, but it's it's old things just repackaged. You know, influencer marketing has been around forever. It's just now. It's on TikTok. You know, and it's just it's a different medium for the same damn thing. I mean, Goldie on was was out there, you know, selling like soap and stuff back in the 70s. right. So it's, it's not like influencer marketing is new, but the method, the style, the wear, like all of those things I think are new and unique. And, it's funny cause as I was doing, you know, my, quick scan in, in, in advance of the show, I saw your, your posts on psychological hacks and, being able to have that law of reciprocity and action. And that to me is the the epitome of an old idea, but done in new ways. And so I'd love to give you the platform to articulate that, that here, you know, what is that free protein bar sample at Costco? How do you push that into your brands and tie that into their ideal cost customer profile, you know, and dig in? Right, and I'm super excited about those, because I have like eight or nine that I have, that I was thinking about and wrote posts on so that I have like that opportunity to share that. you know, like when you go to the gym and you get that, the free protein bar, it's really... base level is very simple, right? But you have to dig into, like you said, your ideal customer and what do they want and what do they need and what excites them. So you're looking at all of that data, right? The more insights you have, the more advantage you have. So if you know your customer really well, you have to be able to get into that mindset of their customer journey and think when they first see your brand. When they get into that brand awareness, like what is it that they're looking for and what can you give them a taste of so that they continue to come back? And there's a lot of things that still play into that, you know, as far as building the trust and the consistency, which again, I'll be sharing on LinkedIn over the next couple of weeks, because it was something that like I sat down and was trying to think like, like you said, what are these simplest things? that are being overlooked right now that makes such a difference for brands because people are trying to get bigger and better and have bigger and better ideas but like you're missing the really important shit. Like that foundational stuff like... trying to figure out like the best way to articulate that. But it's again, it's very simple. It comes down to knowing your brand, knowing your messaging and being so focused on who your ideal customer is and what they want. You know, say like I like I had mentioned in the post, you know, those free samples, I can't tell you how many times that's gotten me. Like they send a little free sample of like a fragrance and then the next time I'm buying that full-size fragrance because they gave me that option. Yeah, and I think people get it mixed up because law of reciprocity is not that you feel guilty that you've benefited from it. There's a stronger relationship and community led element of that where you helped me. And now I'm in a position to buy. So I'm going to buy from the brand that helped me that I have familiarity with that. You know, I have a connection with the same thing with like do doing free webinars where you're not immediately slapping them with a sales pitch. You know, anything that's insightful that adds value, you're going to build that relationship. And that's where that law of reciprocity really takes hold, right? Yeah, and I mean too, I think at this point, so many people are like keen to that. Like if they're showing up to a webinar, they know eventually they're gonna get hit with a sales pitch, right? Like that's why people host webinars. But still, if the information you have on the upfront, if your goal is really just to give value, fucking pack value in there. Give as much as you can. And it doesn't mean that you don't have to give that sales pitch because again, people know that it's coming. when you have enough information given and they feel like they've really got that value and they've got something out of it, that sales pitch is not gross and salesy anymore. It's, hey, I've shown you my authority. I've given you something that you can take and have actionable steps on. But if this does not work out or you feel like you can not do this by yourself, you get to that point, like you try this and you still need some help, here's this option. So it's not like, right. I think Gary Vee talks about it as that whole jab jab right hook thing where you you you earn the right to take a swing with a couple of jabs that are very helpful. So here's a free thing. Here's a free thing and then you know hit him hit him with that right hook on. OK, well now we need to talk about a year long contract and you've earned the right to have that conversation. You've earned the right to have that sales pitch and have them actually paying attention instead of. you know, scrolling on social media while you're pitch slapping them to death. Exactly, yeah, and I feel like so many people now fall into that black and white space where they're only giving value and never asking for the sale, or they are only asking for the sale. And it is so simple to do both, right? You're giving value and giving value, but it's so simple at the end. Even if you recognize the fact that it's a plug, like in your post and say, like, you know, quick plug here, like if you need more coaching, this is how you do that. Because again, like, that's a whole other layer that people appreciate honesty and humanity, which again is why so many collaborations and partnerships with content creators, you know, and having those influencers in those business models creates such growth because people follow those creators because they're human and they like their life and they want to hear more about it. So giving them that opportunity and you you see creators do it. really awful where they're just promoting a product and it feels gross because you can tell that they were paid for that you know and then there's creators that do it so well that like they can show you parts of their day and where those products just fit in really naturally and it's done really well but again you know people want that kind of connection that humanity so like it's okay to acknowledge the fact that you're putting a plug into a post every now and then, but you also have to back that up with the authority of here's all this value that you have. And I think buyer trust is really tied in here. And it goes to the gosh, I can't remember what stat or who came up with that. I think it was HubSpot. They were detailing how people respond to video content and video content that looked more grainy and recorded in like at their desk or in their car or in the corner of the gym. resonated much higher with higher engagement across the board than anytime that they sent like a full video video crew in to be able to get that the whole, you know, I don't know, giant video shoot in. And so it kind of goes against what you would think where you're thinking, well, the higher quality it is, the more people are going to pay attention. No, the more real it is, the more authentic it is, the more people pay attention. Yeah, like those videos that people take while they're just sitting in their car and they're like arguing not arguing but like venting about something or you know, like don't you just hate what people love that shit because people will sit in their cars and like have a conversation with somebody on the phone and just talk about like It's stupid thing that happened, know, it's it's relatable You feel like you're sitting in the car talking to that person because you relate to whatever it is that they're saying and that's again another layer of like building trust and like that connection and then shareable content. Like it's not just enough to create the content, but have something that people want to share. So again, like the more human it is, the more people can relate to that. The more people are going to send it to somebody else that would also relate to that. And it just creates this like wave of awareness and trust. Love it. Influencer marketing tied into community led growth. A plus. I will also point out you had a really big issue with with a videographer and I think our audience would really love to hear it because fucking Tony has now become a synonym, a synonym for anything that's just not working at that company. And I'd love I'd love for you to tell the story. Okay, well, so we, the company was called Hidden Summit and that's again where I kind of got my stardust as creative director at an Intermedia and Events, which was great for me. So we put on this annual retreat where we bring in clients, know, and anybody can attend, but it's typically for clients, you know, and we host it in Naples, Florida. And it's three days of, gym workouts, beach workouts. We have guest speakers and we have food and it's a fun time, right? It's a bunch of fitness people looking to be better in all areas of their life. We get together and we have fun. So we had had a schedule conflict with our typical videographer who's a close friend of us. He was promoting his... documentary and could not be at the event. So we thought that we would find a friend of a friend who came highly recommended. And he came down and he was a one man show, which is great. Like I have absolutely no problem with that. So about a month before the event, we had been on hours of video calls, hours. And on those video calls, I was like sharing my screen, sending him emails, showing him documents like this is the itinerary. This is where I need you to be exactly at this time. These are the shots that I need to cover all of the content. Like this is the content that I want. This is the content that I need for sponsorship deals. And I was just as detailed as I thought I could possibly be leading up to the event. Keep in mind, this is a very small team. It is me, the owner, and that's it. Like we put this event on together by ourselves. So the event came. And it was great. We were having a lot of fun, again, it's just the two of us leading everything and there was 50 people there. So we were trying to kind of keep things organized. And I was so confident in my skills to delegate that I did not talk to Tony about any of the shots except, hey, this is happening right now. Can you go grab that? Kind of like impromptu things that I wanted to make sure that we could catch on camera. And then it came... to getting the footage back, which he was pretty fast at, except for the fact that it was not at all what I wanted. Like all of the shots that I had on my shots list were not there. We had an incredible beach workout that lasted an hour and we had zero footage of the beach workout, which is our main thing. that's, like we're a fitness company that puts on beach. Workout several times a year for smaller events and we had zero footage except for drone footage, which is cool for certain things When you're trying to make content specifically for a beach workout drone footage is just not enough You know what I mean? Like have you ever seen? A reel of just drone footage that did really well. No because it doesn't exist like you have to have people in your videos, right? So we got all the footage back And it was, that's pretty much it. Every time that I go and I look through the footage, I'm still pissed. I sat through three hours, again, which for a three day event did not seem like enough footage to me. But I sat through three hours watching footage, trying to get any sort of real content. I had minimal footage for our sponsors who paid a lot of money for us to put on this event. And it was extremely disappointing. anytime that we, like I said in my post, like if we have anything that we need specifically, it's like, hey, do we have this shot? No, fucking Tony. You know? Or like any time that, you know, trying to put videos together for YouTube or videos that he put together, because that was part of the deal that he would put a couple of videos together. And again, it was just one of those like fucking... fucking Tony. It was not... not good. So... That was a hard lesson learned to make sure that you're really on your people that you don't know. So fucking Tony, what would you do differently if if you had Tony coming in next week for a new project? Not that you're going to because fucking Tony, but new new Tony, new Tony, this is this is Anthony completely different person. Okay, that's fair. Again, in the lead up to the event, I would not change anything because I know for a fact I was extremely detailed with what needed to be done. Like I said, I had a shot list. I went over that shot list with him several times. He said that he understood. So I would not change anything that I did to the lead up. When the event happened, I would have been a lot more diligent on checking in with him, not just at the end of the day, but after each event on the itinerary, before and after to say, again, this is what's happening right now, make sure you get X, Y, and Z. Make sure that you're paying attention to these things. Because again, I understand being like a one-man show, and I understand it was a detailed event and there was a lot happening. However, there has to be some responsibility as far as like you were given all the information and all the things. So if I were to do it differently, I would just be a lot more on top of what was happening with him throughout the event. That was just, I should have paid more attention to what he was doing. I love that you could also change your contract going forward to where, you know, if, X percentage of the shots you requested are not delivered, then it's, you know, X percent discount or you're not paying the final invoice or whatever that is. would be that would be a great idea. I had never thought of that before but again I never also thought that I would be so disappointed in the footage that I got but yeah that was that was a huge shock to know that like 2 % of the footage that I needed was there. Again like I'm still I cannot tell you how frustrated I was it was a beach workout and that's like You doing anything, we're putting on beach workouts and this fucker didn't get off his ass the entire time, sat there with the drone and I didn't realize it until afterwards. So I'm still pretty pissed off about it. Well, everybody loves their new toys and maybe the drone was new. yeah, we got a lot of drone footage that weekend, which is just completely unusable, but I digress. Well, I think in this day and age where the gig economy is so strong, marketing teams are much smaller than they were previously. You you're always going to be supplementing with contractors. so, you know, your story probably resonates with every person listening right now, because we've all had that contractor who significantly underperformed and We want to blame them and we want to be, you know, like, fucking Tony. And it totally is their responsibility. It's their business. It's what they committed to. But we also have to collectively as marketers get better, right? Like we got to figure out how to manage these folks because they have 10 other clients that are not us. And so how do we get them to prioritize us? How do we get them to make sure they're hitting everything that we need them to hit? How do we make sure they're not wasting? I had a I had a contractor one time that blew through 40 hours of time on a project that was never approved for them to start on. They had three things that were assigned. They did something else and then build for it. And I didn't have anything in our agreement to stop that. So now not only do I got to pay for a bunch of work, I didn't request that. should not have been done in the first place. But now I got to go out and find a new contractor. And that takes a ton of time and effort to be able to get them on board to do the things that were actually assigned. And so, you know, finding the the guardrails against those things, you know, some of it on the front end, making sure when you interview, you know, you're getting somebody who's going to pay attention to those details that you care the most about. But also somebody who's not just gonna go rogue and do the things that they want to do without running it by you. Right, yeah, like the drone footage. I don't remember ever requesting drone footage, but we got a lot of it. But yeah, think that's... So if you're listening and you need some contractors, make sure that you put that in your agreement that these are the deliverables and if these are not delivered, then I'm not gonna pay you for that. I mean, in the legal way. Well, and I love your, your entire concept of like the day of two. you got a small team tasking each member of your team with one check-in doesn't change much of the day to day and the chaos of running the event, but, you know, specify like after this, you know, after the, beach workout event, I'm going to go check in with them after we do lunch. you're gonna go check it with and we're just gonna keep checking in on our our contractors and you can divide and conquer because if it's all if it's all one person's responsibility, if that one person is responding to a problem. Now you're not going to follow up with your contractor. But I love your entire concept of like continuously checking in through the day. You might even be able to automate that. Maybe there's a there's a way to schedule out your texts or emails to the person and like like have a verify. Hey, did you get these shots? Reply, reply. Yes. And again, I'm I think just because it's fucking Tony, I take that tone of like having to check in and like having to treat him like a baby, which was not like I'm not that kind of person. Right. Like I don't want to treat anybody with anything other than the utmost respect. So it's again, like contractors are people and they're like this is their living. I am like I completely understand. Like I was a freelance coach for many, many years and I understand how difficult that is. But again, like you said, you know, there's some responsibility in taking pride in what you're doing and making sure that you're taking care of that client. So there's that, again, that back and forth, that give and take of like, hey, I'm gonna check in with you. You're a big boy, you can do this by yourself, but these are the details that I really need you to focus on. Did you get that done? Love it. want to shift gears kind of back to your, to your story and your background, starting effectively as, kind of a fitness influencer yourself early on, and then transitioning into running marketing for, for all of these brands and being their voice. must've, I guess the question I have is like how How did that transition take place? I know you said kind of accidental marketer, but there must've been a ton of things that you were doing that set you up for an immense amount of success. And I really want to just identify what those were. Yeah, I guess it started in, let's say it was like 2016, 2017 maybe. My brother-in-law had a shop in Oregon and it was custom cars. And again, I had been doing my social media fitness thing for about a year at that point and I had gained about 10,000 followers, which to me was huge. mean, it's huge. Like there's, there's no under rep. I get it. There's there's influencers out there with like 5 million followers, but 10,000 is huge. Like there's such a big gap between between 100 and 1000, 1000 and 5000, 5010 that like it's, it's an enormous change. So hats off. Round of quiet applause since I don't want to ruin anybody's car speakers. But no, like that is a lot. That's a lot. You built you built your own personal brand and you had 10,000 followers hats off. It was, thank you. Yeah, that was a huge deal to me. So I was feeling very fucking cool because I had built that. You know, so again, my brother had a, my brother-in-law had a custom car shop up in Oregon and he was doing not just the custom cars, but he had a, one of those machines where you could make those metal signs. I can't think of the name of them now. They're very cool. They're very expensive. They're very hard to run. He had one. So he was selling these signs where you can put in a picture and it just creates that metal sign. he was not getting any clients and he was not selling anything. So he had asked for my help just as a favor like, hey, what could I do better? Like how can I show this to more people? And that was really, again, like just like dipping my toe into helping other people with their social media and their marketing. So I was able to help him. And that was really the first instance that like maybe I don't want to coach. Maybe I want to do something like this. And again, I was very early on in my coaching kind of career. And then as time went on, it was just more things like that that I would have like other coaches come to me and say like, hey, what could I do better? Like how, like how can I make my content better? Like how, how do I talk about this? You know, and then I got in like, with First Form, I was a Legionnaire for a while just because I liked the products. And they take you through that too. you know, helped a lot as far as figuring out how to talk to people. So I had kind of that information, that education. And then it was just kind of continuously like other coaches. And then it came to like, you know, friends that would start a business that would be like, you know, how do I talk about this? Like, what do think about this video? Like, could I do it this way? And then it just continued to roll into that to where I was helping people every single month create content strategies. And like, we would sit down and talk about like, well, really what's important to you? What do you want them to know? And like, who are you talking to? And that again, just kind of continued to build, but I never thought of it as anything other than helping. Like, you know, they would pay me here and there as they could, but again, It was not something that was like a career for me. Like I was still coaching, but I was doing this because I love to do it. And I like to help people and I'm like data driven. and if I can create your content strategy that you can take and repeat, like that's like blows my mind still to this day. I love doing that because it is so cool to see it in action. but yeah, when I, when it got to that point where it was like, I cannot coach anymore, like I just don't want to. And actually, before I made the switch full time, I had burnt out as a coach completely. One day it was just like, shut it off, I'm done, passed off my clients. And I didn't work at all for a good four months. And I was just trying to see like, what do I want to do now? And that's when I started really like applying to marketing jobs and being paid for marketing jobs and doing that as like, as an actual job. It was not a career yet, but it was something that made me happy and made me money. And it was something that I enjoyed. It was just not steady. So what ended up happening is again, a friend of a friend needed coaches for his business. So I applied like begrudgingly. I did not want to coach anymore, but it was at the point like I need some fucking money. Like I'm going to starve. I need to have a full time job. So I started coaching again. And I coached with him for like eight months. And again, I love coaching. I'm good at coaching, but I was not happy. And it was again, getting to that point that I was ready to throw it all away when he said, hey, do you want to help me on this marketing side? And that's when I was able to make that full switch. That must have been incredibly terrifying. It was. Yes. Yeah. life where you're just like, how do I pay the bills? And now I'm to go off and do this new thing. Mm-hmm. Yeah. that? I'd imagine your background in fitness and like the regimented nature of that, like getting out of bed to work out when you'd rather sleep for another hour. Like I think, you know, maybe that helped you to be able to jump in to tackle a new industry in a completely different way than what you've been doing. For sure, yeah, that's when I really leaned into, again, just like that type A personality, like if I'm gonna do something, I'm gonna be really fucking good at it. So I got all of the information I could, I took all of the courses that I could. I really leaned into that discipline of learning something new. And you know, like you said, like in fitness, you know, we're taught continuously to do the work without any of the results. Because like if you do one workout, your body doesn't change. You eat one fucking salad, your body doesn't change. If you do that continuously, you start to see it. And that was like just in my mind, you know, like I'm going to continue to put in the work. I'm going to continue to do this, you know, and then you would get those small wins, just like in fitness, you get those small wins, you know, you're a little bit faster, you're a little bit stronger. I was seeing that I was actually good at this, good enough to the point that I could be hired to do it, you know? So just putting in the reps and having those small wins. And then it really became about reframing. Like, was I just a fitness coach that helped a little bit here and there? Or like, was I a fitness coach that also helped build brands? Because that's the truth of the nature. Like I took time to build strategies and put these systems in place for these companies and these small businesses to be able to thrive. I did that. Like this was not a small thing anymore. So it was again, like, putting that faith in myself, like not that it wasn't terrifying, because it was absolutely fucking terrifying. You know, and there's a lot of that imposter syndrome, like am I good enough to apply to this job? Do it. Like, you know, and there's those, you know, you see those statistics that what is like 70% of people that apply for jobs are not qualified in every aspect. I was like, fuck it, I am 40 % qualified and I'm gonna apply anyways. And you know what, I would get the interview, not that I would always get the job. But would get the interview. And to me, that was a win that if they see what they like enough to want to have a conversation with me, I have the skills to be better, to do this for real. So it was terrifying, but like it was that push that I need to do this. If this is where I'm going to be, that I'm going to be really fucking good at it. And I'm going to continue to put myself out there. So one of the things that really stands out to me is how like unapologetically you, you are in your personal and professional branding. And I think that that absolutely contributes to the success that you've been able to have, you know, getting those interviews, I think is in large part due to the fact that people just can connect with you. They've they can relate with you. They they understand who you are. before you come into that interview. And I think that that's a benefit. What advice would you give to our listeners who are struggling with doing that themselves? Well, I appreciate that. Thank you. Because that means a lot to me because I was not always this way, definitely. And it just takes, for me it was just, like I said before, think about where you want to be. And one of the biggest personal development breakthroughs that I had was taking action for the person that you want to be and not the person that you are. And it's explained in a much better way than I can do it. when you're making decisions, you know, and it started again when I was a coach, what I would tell my clients, you know, when you're making these decisions throughout the day, are you making those decisions based on who you are right now? Are you making those decisions based on the person that you want to be? Think of exactly who it is that you want to be, you know, and like, what would that person do in this exact situation? And if you don't know who you want to be, who's somebody that you admire and what would they do in this exact moment? And that was really the, The kind of switch that did it for me, it's like, the person that I want to be, not that they don't give a shit, but they don't really give a shit what you think. To be completely honest, it's just figuring out, again, the type of person that you want to be and putting yourself out there as that person. Even if you have to fake it till you make it, if you're not totally comfortable being unapologetically you just yet, put the reps in. It will come. If you continue to work that, it will come. because there's still moments that I have that like, am I the only person that's having this thought right now? Because there's been those moments, like, am I just like a fucking weirdo that thinks this or feels this way? 99 % of the time, there is somebody else that has the exact thought that you're having and they're just not saying because they're afraid of it. So again, when you say something like that, like it builds that instant connection that like somebody is relating to you. Well, and I think that also ties into the the ages old internal battle that marketers who have visible tattoos have with putting images out into the world with those tattoos. You know, I myself play I have visible tattoos and you know, I think you do a really great job of not hiding them and not hiding who you are but doing it in a professional and creative way. And so I don't know, I think our listeners could benefit a lot from that because there's, there's so many of us that have that struggle of like, what is professional? And I think the definition of that has changed so much in the last 10 to 20 years, that it's hard to understand what modern professional is. Right. Yeah. And it's funny you say that because when my first instance where I realized that like my looks mattered was when I actually gave birth to my son. So again, I've had all the tattoos that you can't see them right now. But if you look on my LinkedIn, you'll see my tattoos and I've never tried to hide them. They're all very old by now. You know, the last one, the last big one I got when I when I was 21, I finished my half sleeve, you know, so it's I've had them for for a minute. And again, my gauges that are much smaller right now. But when I had my son, you know, I had an inch gauge like in each year and they were very visible. They were very noticeable and I had all the tattoos. I never thought about the way that I looked again because I was a coach and you have a lot more freedom in the fitness space. Looking back on it now, like I had a lot more freedom, but now I know that My skills are enough to carry me through. me, that's professional. Like, I have the skills and I can show you that. However, when I was 21 and a fitness coach and I just gave birth to my son, I was in Bakersfield, California in Bakersfield Memorial Hospital. If any of you know where that is, it is not a good part of town. It is, um, it's a sketchy part of town for sure. So I came in, um, and at the time, again, I was 21, 20. I was young, in 2021. I had a lot of tattoos. I had big gauges. I had black hair, you know, and my husband had just come home from work and he worked as a mechanical construction. So he was covered in dirt, right? You know, we didn't look upscale. So I, again, I had my son and I didn't realize that the nurses were being weird because they thought that I was a bad person. Again, being in downtown Bakersfield and having my son and having the tattoos and like Trevor was dirty. Until a nurse made a passing comment that my son hadn't eaten in an hour and I was having trouble feeding him. Long story short, they kept me there for four days because they thought that I was neglecting him. And it came down to the way that I looked. And I know that because I actually went, I didn't get a lawyer and like sue them or anything, but I talked to somebody in their legal department and the nurse had said that I looked disheveled and that I looked like I was on drugs because I was like thin because I was a fitness coach. And I had never in my life been discriminated for the way that I looked until that moment. And I was like, wow. like people pay attention to that. But you know, again, I think. You know, those kind of thoughts change. Like you said, you know, what is professional anymore? In that moment, did I look professional? Absolutely not because my water just broke and I was having my sun, you know, like I didn't plan to have my water break. But like I said, I know that I have the skills to back up what I'm saying. So even though I have tattoos and I have the gauges, they won't get any smaller than this. Believe me, I've tried. They won't. You know, if you stretch them so big, they just don't get any smaller. you know, I'm comfortable with who I am. And I think that's the biggest thing. That's what I'm trying to get at is when you have confidence in who you are and your abilities, professional looking takes on a different meaning. Because, you know, I have tattoos and I have the gauges and I have the dark hair and I might not look like a typical marketing professional. But if you see the campaigns, and my analytics without looking at me you would be impressed. So I have confidence in who I am and my abilities and that's why I feel like I can so to say get away with the way that I look. Well, and in some ways, because marketing and sales and everything go to market is a very creative area of business. It's not like you're walking in like I'm going to be the chief accountant for a Fortune 500 company. And you're like, here, look at my gauges and all my tattoos and everything. I'm getting my nose pierced at lunch. No, no, you're not going to be an accountant for a Fortune 500 firm. Right. You know, it's a creative gig. And so I think the idea of professional has really shifted, particularly in the creative realms, because you almost expect it. had a I was doing a trade show and a very large fast food chain. Their head of I.T., like their CIO, comes up. to the booth and we have a great talk and he's asked, can I ask if we could speak to a technical resource? And I said, how do you know that I'm not a technical resource? We were just having beers at a happy hour thing, And he looks at me, like, I could tell from the glasses and your tattoo, I think you were on marketing, right? And it's like instantly figured that out. I don't know. There's a there's a it's a blessing and a curse, right? Like if you're in a creative field, you have a little bit more freedom to be weird because people expect creative people to be weird. But it also makes me really sad for my highly technical brethren. Like, why can't you be weird, too? Like we weird is not directly tied into the skills to do the day job. But was an interesting, interesting moment. I immediately went and introduced him over, you know, to, my buddy who is a chief sales engineer for us and a highly technical guy. And it's like, Hey, let me introduce you to John notice his tattoos. Right? Yeah. Yeah. and two, think, like you said, you know, being creative, you have a lot more freedom. But like, I've met plenty of people that are, you know, more professional, so to say, and they're just as fucking weird as I am. They just hide it a whole lot better because I have the freedom to be weird. Well, and you can't in a day and age with influencer marketing and with every brand, you have to have two or three voices from within your company that are now influencers pushing the messaging of your company. If you don't show your weird, like whatever brand of weird you are, if you're not willing to put that out into the world, nobody's going to relate with you. mean, for me, I put out into the world, like I I collect like records and a tracks and things. I'm a tech professional who loves listening to a 1970s a track. It's super weird. Like there's no bigger definition of weird than that. But I'll tell you the messages that I get. mean, even just yesterday I was tagged in a in a post. Mark, did you catch the music reference in this post? I thought if anybody would it be you and it's like that that my willingness to put my weird end of the world has connected and endeared me to folks, you know, as I build my community. And so I think it's the same thing with brands. If you're not willing to show how weird your founder is, and instead you just want them to look super polished and brilliant all the time, you want to highlight the Ferrari they bought or the Rolex that they wear, whatever funding round that they just did. Yeah, sure. Do some of that. Maybe not all of it because it sounds really lame. But you got to show that they're equally as as weird as every person on the planet feels from day to day. Right. if anybody that's listening, if you have not checked out Fro Pro Snacks, first of all, go eat them. They're fucking fantastic. Second of all, the founder and the owner, his name is Matt. He's a very, very cool dude. He does that so well. If you go to their Instagram, you will see Matt all the time being a fucking weirdo because he is. He's again, super cool guy, super fucking weird and he is not afraid to show that, especially on his company page, which again, it just people connect with that. I like pro pro snacks because I know Matt and he's an incredible person and he makes incredible snacks. If you're just coming in off the block and finding a pro pro snacks, you're going to immediately love Matt because he shows that and he's incredibly relatable. He is one of those people that just does that. really well. Like you said, like all of the founders and people that are running these businesses, show the fuck up. Nobody cares. Not to nobody cares about your product. Nobody cares about your product if they don't care about you. People need to see that human connection. People need to know that you're a human being and you're not somebody that's just out here to make money. Not that making money is a bad thing, but people can sense when you're an asshole. So don't be an asshole, I guess. I love that people can sense when you're an asshole. So don't be an asshole Words words to live by by Sammy Norman. I I end these podcasts the same way every time I'm gonna give you the last word and I want you to talk to You know younger Sammy Yeah, the one making that change coming into marketing and go to market for the first time What advice would you give that Sam? Go harder. I know that you're scared, but use that gazelle-like intensity because tiptoeing will only get you so far. If you're going to do something, then push yourself.