Authenticity in a World of AI with Becca Chambers Artwork

GTM After Hours

This is a safe space for the best GoToMarket execs, IC’s, and middle-managers in B2B SaaS. We've all failed and succeeded, so, of course we'll talk about both - and we'll spill the tea on how we coped along the way. Join host, and veteran SaaS GTM leader, Mark Bliss for some real talk about how to survive, succeed, and thrive in your GoToMarket career!

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GTM After Hours

Authenticity in a World of AI with Becca Chambers

March 18, 2025 • Mark Bliss • Season 1 • Episode 24

In this episode of the GTM After Hours podcast, Mark Bliss interviews Becca Chambers, a communications professional and neurodiversity advocate. They discuss the importance of neurodiversity in the workplace, how it can be a superpower for innovation, and the need for companies to create inclusive environments. Becca shares her experiences with ADHD and how vulnerability in leadership can foster open communication. They also explore the impact of AI on creativity and the future of work, emphasizing the importance of flexibility and independent learning.

Takeaways

Neurodiversity is a valuable asset in the workplace.
Vulnerability in leadership encourages team members to share.
Flexibility is essential for accommodating neurodivergent employees.
Employee advocacy should focus on genuine conversations.
Employees should feel empowered to express themselves online.
Personal brands can positively reflect corporate brands.
Authenticity is crucial in corporate culture.
Employee experiences significantly impact company reputation.
Investing in personal branding is essential for career growth.
Owning your story is vital in today's job market.
Taking risks can lead to significant career advancements.
Being proactive and willing to learn is key to success.

Sound Bites

"Neurodiversity adds to the workplace."
"Teams that are not neurodiverse are boring."
"Innovation comes from diverse perspectives."
"Vulnerability opens the door for conversation."
"Flexibility is key in the workplace."
"The different different is what makes us unique."
"We need to adapt to the tools that are coming."
"We should all be out trying all of the things."
"That's what makes you human."
"Invest in the infrastructure of your brand."
"People want to buy from people."
"Be your own self."
"Do the scary thing."
"The more I said, okay, I'll try that."
"Be that all figured out person."

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0:36

Hi and welcome to the GTM After Hours podcast. This is gonna be a good one if you like comms and analyst communications and anything witty LinkedIn post-wise. You're gonna love this episode. I'm joined by a fabulous guest, Becca Chambers, known otherwise as Becca from LinkedIn. what is something that our audience should know about you like that 30,000 foot view other than Becca from LinkedIn who's a comms pro. Okay, well, you got the comms pro piece. I am also a neurodiversity advocate and that is because I have raging ADHD, which you'll definitely be able to tell sometime in this podcast. You can already tell because you know me. So I talk in circles. You guys will see. I don't get to the point like right now. I talk a lot about neurodiversity because it... I believe that neurodiversity adds to the workplace and adds to society and is just a different way of being, just like being left-handed is a different way of being. So that's a little bit about me. I'm obsessed with Oxford commas and dashes and Schitt's Creek GIFs, which I think at this point, those three things are just like a part of my brand. So I feel compelled to mention them. And yeah, I'm Becca from LinkedIn. And that was an accidental... branding that now I live it. So here we are. I love it. And the circular progression to be able to get to your point, I'm all for it. I find that it's not the point that matters. It's the journey that you took to get there. The side quests are part of the, I don't know what the word is. I guess the flair of life, right? Indeed. And I love the Schitt's Creek references. I just had to introduce my kids to Fold in the Cheese. my gosh. If you say fold in the cheese one more time. Yeah, it was it was great. And so now now they're shitscreek fans. And so yeah, that that is awesome. And I love it. have an ADHD synapse right now, is that you don't even have to have watched the show to appreciate clips or gifts or whatever, because their faces say it all and you don't even need to understand the context to enjoy it. And that's why I feel like those gifts are particularly accessible for everybody. Plus the show is awesome, so if you haven't watched it, you should, but anyway. Well, let's let's maybe start with that kind of the superpower of being on the spectrum and being unique. Like I love that you kind of kicked off there. And I find that it is an incredible superpower that it's a different way of looking at things instead of hiring the same five dudes wearing the same thing with the same education who all worked at the same company. It's so good to have. diverse perspectives and ways of looking at things. And so what's kind of your take on that? How has that been a superpower for you? And why do workforces need to invest a little bit more in recruiting folks with different thought processes and mindsets? Yeah, I will start by saying, and maybe I should have mentioned this in my intro, I worked in cybersecurity for 15 years, which means that I got to work in an industry where people are by design a little bit quirkier and different, right? And it is more acceptable to be a little bit outside the box, right? Executives have full arm sleeves and that's just normal. You wouldn't really see that in finance or in, you know, I don't know, legal industries. So I think that because of that, I was able to unmask my neurodivergence a little bit and be a little bit more of myself, which I think is a little bit quirkier, a little bit different, little bit less of the buttoned up what you would expect from your white collar communications leader. And as I became more comfortable being myself, I saw how much better the outcomes were that I was driving. And I realized, like, if I'm trying to do things like everybody else, the outcomes are fine and I'm doing a good job. But when I do things the way that my brain wants to do them, we are just crushing it. So we stopped feeling like I was trying to be something else and decided I'm just going to be myself and see how it goes. And as part of that, I felt almost like I needed to defend my difference by at least disarming people by saying, hey, I might not be looking at you directly in the eyes during our interview. That's because when I think I sometimes have to look around, it helps my brain activate. That's because I have ADHD. And that shouldn't be something that discounts me or my skills or whatever. And I'm talking in circles. So I give you all of that context because there is all of the shame around ADHD or autism or dyslexia or whatever neurodivergence. And so people don't talk about it. And the more that I talked about it, the more I had people say to me, thank you for saying that. Like, oh my God, this is the first time I've ever been able to talk about this at work. Like all of these things that are, you shouldn't have to hide that about yourself. And data shows, I actually was writing a post about this last night, 20 % of the population is neurodivergent in some way, at least 20 % of them. That's one in five people, right? That is way more people than our left-handed, have red hair, insert thing here. And yet it's something that is stigmatized or taboo to talk about or whatever, but it's just a different way of being. And so my final point on this, and I don't have all of my data points in front of me, which I should have brought with me because they're really good, but you can go look. Harvard Business Review has something called, essentially, Neurodiversity Strengthens Workforces or something like that. It is an economic, not a nice thing to do, an economic boon to businesses when they have neurodiverse workforces. There's a statistic like autistic employees are a hundred times more productive than their neurotypical counterpoints. Why would you not want to have a workforce filled with people who are a hundred times more productive than their counterparts, right? And the only thing that, the thing that empowers those people to be 100 % more productive is to work somewhere that allows their brains to work the way that their brains need to work. Because if you're saying to an autistic person or a person with ADHD like me, you have to do this thing in this way to drive this outcome, okay, I'll do that. But if you say, here's the outcome, go drive it however you want, we will do it and we will kick. ass at it and probably do 10 other things along the way. Like I said, side quests, right? We'll also figure out 12 new processes to make your business stronger and make your team all feel really good about it along the way. There's just so much value that we're missing when we try to box people into everyone should be acting the same way. So this was a super long-winded way for me to say teams that are not neurodiverse are boring. They are not innovative and they are super missing out on this like out of the box thinking that is the thing that drives innovation. And I would challenge anyone to name the top five most innovative people in existence, whether that's artists, scientists, mathematicians, entrepreneurs. I bet you every single one of them is neurodivergent. Every single one that pops into your brain, Michelangelo, Steve Jobs, right? Like whoever those people are. they are likely neurodivergent. And that's because they are the innovators, the outside the box thinkers, the ones who are pushing the boundaries because they see things in different ways. There you go. Totally. I think what you touched on earlier on how tech kind of is more of an open arena for that. You you're seeing founders with tattoo sleeves and everything. Like, I don't ever feel like I need to hide my tattoos when I'm in tech. But I think from that top down approach, it really shows like the acceptance of being yourself, of being weird. And I think that that trickles into an acceptance of people just showing their uniqueness. And I think it adds a lot more neurodiversity. so how can companies that maybe don't have that founder today who's all tatted out or openly discussing, I wonder how do you get them to move in the direction? of inclusiveness. I mean, it's such a big conversation because part of it is like, people don't even know what neurodiversity is right now. So we've got a point where some of it is just education. It's just, hey, you have autistic coworkers and you might not even know it. And it shouldn't be on them to have to say, hey, I'm autistic. This is what I need. It should just be that organizations are more open about those conversations. I can't control my company, right? But I can control my team because I am the leader of my team. And one thing that I do as a leader, is I show my vulnerability because something that showing vulnerability does is show other people that they can be vulnerable too. And it opens up the door for conversation. And when I say to people, my God, can you please, if I don't respond to your email, remind me 50 times, it doesn't bother me because I might see it and forget and I'm really sorry. It's not intentional, it's my ADHD. And my team accommodates that. Yes, maybe it is annoying to them that I don't respond to them. they'll ping me because they know that I'm not annoyed by them bothering me. I have given them the, is what I need in order for us to work together and they accommodate that. On the flip side, they have to be understanding that I'm the boss, but I'm not perfect. I don't know. I feel like it's this two-way, it's an open exchange of communication. This is actually why I feel compelled to talk about it is I'm in a place now of privilege where I'm high enough in an organization where I'm not scared I'm going to lose my job by being open about my ADHD. And I can be representative to other people. Like the thing that is, I think, probably most moving about being more open and public about neurodiversity is the number of people who send me messages and just tell me how much it means to them that they see somebody successful with ADHD, right? And who isn't ashamed and who is leaning into that. it's really sad that that's where we're at. But it does make me feel good knowing that if I can put a face to just make someone feel a little bit less shameful, thank God. That's all that matters to me because I know what that feels like, to feel like I don't belong in my skin. I know that I'm massively smart. I don't know why things feel harder for me than they do for other people. And I do this for my kids too. Some things are going to be harder for you. But guess what? You're gonna be way, way, way better at other things than other people. So it's like, how do you figure out what those things are and not feel ashamed for the bad things? So to answer your question about what organizations do, it's dialogue, it's conversation, it's psychological safety, right? And telling people that it's okay to be different and it's okay to share the, need this thing. Like we don't expect people to be perfect all the time, right? So hey, after our meetings, Can you make sure that you send a wrap up of the key points because there are people on our team who digest information better that way. Like that's something that you can do as a leader to help everybody on your team or add subtitles to your meetings or whatever those things might be. mean, working from home is a massive boon for people who are neurodivergent or disabled people in general, I think flexibility, the bottom line is flexibility, right? In everything. how you structure your team and how you expect people to get work done and the applications people use. Here's a really stupid example. When I go work somewhere, if they tell me I have to use a PC, I cannot work there. That's it. I am a Mac person. I cannot use a PC. I will not use a PC because it will require me to redo every process and structure that I am kick ass at just because somebody wants me to use a different computer and the... Why would you do that? And that's one small example, but multiply that times all of your employees, times every process that they do, times every thing that they're trying to do. If you just say, here's the outcome I want you to drive, go drive it and let them drive it in the way that they want to drive it, you just get such better results. And I think like the how do you accommodate more neurodivergent people in your workplace? It's be less rigid, be more flexible about how people get things done and what apps they use and what technology they use. And if they don't want to be on camera, who gives a shit? know, like there are some times when people need to be on camera, certainly not all the time. And I don't see why we force that or in the office or whatever it is. And those are the little things, whatever they are, have a dialogue with your team and figure out how do you make those adjustments. And to your point, not every company has representation, but if you do, elevate those voices, know, showcase, here are people in our organization who have disabilities or who have neurodivergence or are, you know, gay or whatever the different is. That's how you create acceptance, right? As you create visibility and awareness that, all of these people exist and they're in your company and they're already here. So let's just find ways to support each other. I think you just got the headline of your next LinkedIn post, the different different. Whatever the different different is like, it's gold. I love it. But we're all different, different, right? And it goes back to the whole, every single, I don't look disabled and I have some pretty like limiting physical disabilities that make it so I can't do certain things. And. I am not less of an employee because of those things, you know? And I shouldn't have to hide those things, but I do because I know that there are stigmas attached to it. And I just, it's such a weird thing that in 2025, as a successful woman with 20 years behind me, I am ashamed to tell people that I have physical disabilities that I was born with that I can't help because stigma, right? What a ridiculous thing. Yeah. can mail you a soapbox and then we can take a pause and we'll come back to it because that's epic. Honestly, it pisses me off because there are so many talented people and you get one or two executives who want to put everybody into that same box. And so that's the whole return to office bullshit. It's like you have at least at least 25 % of your company that would rather die than be in a commute. Right? So why the fuck are you making them unhappy to have to come to the office? Because that's how you work best. Why don't you uplevel your skill set and learn how to manage remote teams? 100%. I mean, we all had to make an adjustment when the pandemic happened. Some of us thrived in that and some people didn't. And it is to your point, unfair, I guess, just like a practical level that the majority gets to dictate to everybody else how you have to work because that's how you like to work. I'm an introvert. I can turn it on for an hour to talk to you on a podcast. I can go to a conference and schmooze it up. That is exhausting for me. Doing that eight hours a day, every day, in person. Are you fucking kidding me? my God. Like that just burns me out and like burns me out for no reason. Like there's no additive value to that other than it makes somebody else feel more in control, right? They feel like they understand, Becca must be working because she's here. Her face is here, right? I guarantee you I work way more hours. when I have to get dressed and drive my ass somewhere and deal with socializing all day, because I will hyper-focus my ass into something for 10 hours and get four days worth of work done, right? And it goes to that not everybody works that way. I wouldn't expect my team to work the way that I work. I just say to them, these are the expectations, these are the times when we need to meet together, and these are the outcomes I want you to drive. Go on, team, thrive, you know? Well, and you touched on, think is a really important point in that you can turn it on and you can be an extrovert, but you know, you're an extroverted introvert, introvert I'm the same way. Like I can give a public speech. I, I can host a podcast. I can do all these things and I'm great at it, but I'm so wiped out from it. And do not ask me to approach five people. I don't know in a cocktail hour, like I'm at all. And it's, and it's the weirdest thing, like I can speak on a stage in front of, you know, 2000 people. But walking up to five people at a bar is like nerve wracking, like it brings me anxiety. And so don't assume that just because somebody is really great at public speaking or something, or they're really great in their presentations, or they are the friendliest happiest person that you meet at the water cooler in that office. does not mean that they want to be there. It does not mean that they are thriving. And it does not mean that they're going to have enough gas left in their internal energy reserve to be able to do the work that you need them to do. Totally. Well, plus there's this like idea that like, you make it look so easy. So it must be easy. I will tell you any of my speaking appearances are not easy. Podcasts like this are easy because we're just talking. But like if I have a podcast where there's a specific topic where I like, let's say I'm to go somewhere and teach people about neurodiversity. Like that's something I talk about all the time. And I still have to prepare my ass for that. Right. Like I have to go study things because my brain doesn't keep information in it long enough when unless it's written down, you know, like A one hour talk that I might come and it seems very natural and easy takes eight hours of work on the back end. And that's if I already have the slides prepared, right? Like that's if I just, that's my mental preparation to get ready or the getting dressed and all of the things that go, because all of us have a process for things and it's not just like jump into it and be great at it. And I think, I don't know, I think the internet makes it so A lot of us think that things are just easy and things come natural or that all of us are the same or do things. I don't know. I've just kind of like gotten to this mindset of why are we forcing everybody to do things the same way when we have all of the tools in the world available to us to do things however we need to do them and get amazing things done? My favorite is when like IT comes at me and they're like, you can't have that tool. And I'm like, okay, what do need to do to get this tool? No, you just can't. Why are we banning free tools? Like I get the shadow IT, I get the cyber security implications, but like let's create ways that people can use the tools they need to do their job because we have everything available to us. Let's not dictate how people do things. Well, it's like, it's like banning TikTok. Make it make sense. I mean, I'm not even on TikTok, so I don't, I feel for all the creators, like with everything, we are banning things. People are going to find a way that we all find the way, right? So why are we, we're controlling people for the sake of control is what we're doing. People like feel like they can, if they can control things that they can control everything. And I just think we're at a point where control the things that you can control, right? This goes back to like, I can control my team and I can control the behaviors of myself and hopefully that trickles down to the people on my team, but I can't control the company, right? I can just, it's kind of like the world right now. People think if they make these controlling things, they can control the whole world when all it's doing is you control this piece and it spins 12 things, 12 other things off over here. And now everybody speaks Mandarin apparently, cause we're going to, red book. that what it's called? Something notebook? I don't know. Red note. That was close. yeah. Look, for me, it's this really interesting scenarios, like I can't even control my sleep schedule. And so this idea that I'm going to come in there and control an entire department, controlling people like That's not in my skill set because you know again, I can't control myself But what you can control are outcomes, you know, like, because you can look at your team and you can say, these are the things that aren't driving the outcomes we want. Let's adjust those things. And I guess here's what we're talking about. There's some people who feel like they need to control the process from the beginning rather than let the process work and then fix the things that aren't working. Right. Where I think that unless you're building a company from scratch or a team from scratch, you cannot control the thing from the beginning to end. You have to look at the process and then fix the things that don't work. use the data you have available to you, right? And not just like, we're going to do this because this is how I did it at my last company, or we're going to do this because this is how we've always done it here, or whatever it is. Look at the data and make adjustments. And that is such a fundamental no-duh. I'm working with my kid on iteration right now. He's 10. So if my 10-year-old in fifth grade can iterate and adjust processes to do better, why can't we do that in the workplace as a basic norm? Right now it doesn't even seem like it's the standard for a lot of people. It's like, nah, we'll just let things suck because they suck and it's hard to fix it. Okay. think there might be a generational component to I read a study. I'm an elder millennial. So I bought Ace of Base the sign was the first CD I ever bought. I got the I got the record behind me. seriously? Yeah, that was my that was my first. And it's the least cool thing ever that that was my the first CD I ever bought. I My first cassette tape I ever bought was the Beastie Boys. So that's way cooler. And I will usually lead with that. Like that's first music I bought. But anyway, like I think I think we grew up in an era where so many things changed. Like we went from floppy disks with Oregon Trail to the Internet in like our childhood and. were figuring out how to use the tech when we were like eight, right? Like we were on our own figuring it out, which is a totally different thing. that change, the evolution. mean, heck, even in the music side, we went from cassette tapes to CDs to downloadable fire and limewire and Napster to streaming. so it's like that level of shift in that proximity of time. I think we might just be more open to different paths to the same solution just because it was kind of beaten out of us. Like we didn't have a choice. And frankly, our kids are going through the same thing because they had to live through that pandemic. That's such an interesting perspective, you know? And I even say, yes, our kids are living through the same thing. And I think AI is going to be that big thing. Everything that they've learned how to do, they're to have to relearn how to do it, along with everybody else, because there's all these new tools changing the way that workflows happen. It's the new AOL disk in the mail. AI is that. It just changed everything. But so here's what my question is. We as elder millennials, like we were on AOL, my parents were looking over my shoulder going, what you doing there on those interwebs, right? I'm talking to adult men in an AOL chat room and my parents were like, cool, show me what you're doing there, right? They had no idea what we're up to and we're figuring it out, right? And like. dash S dot dash L question mark, age, location. what my first AOL screen name was? It was Fresh Girl. That's how cool I was. Fifth grade, Fresh Girl. You were fresh, like the prince. Then it became rap for me Tupac because I went into my Tupac era after that. Man, good times. But will the kids now with AI tools, all of the tools, are they gonna be just like light years ahead of us, right? Like, are they gonna be like, I know my kids are already like this with video games. Like they're doing stuff in video games that I feel like a grandma, like just trying to have a grasp on making sure they're not talking to 50 year old. stranger men online and I have no idea. Like I'm trying very hard to feel in control, but I don't. Is that what's gonna happen with AI tools? Like are our kids literally gonna be like, my God, mom, are you kidding me? That's how you go to the grocery store? my God, know, here I made a bot for that. And then like a robot's gonna show up at my house. I don't know. It feels like we're on the cusp of that. I think so 100%. I think you're going to see a lot more independent learning. think this fight of returning to the office dies, absolutely dies when when Gen when Gen alpha hits the hits the workforce. I mean, you look at the shift. I mean, at that point, we we will be where where the boomers are now. And And then Gen Z will be that bridge generation to Gen Alpha. And so I don't know. I feel like it has to. I mean, you can't have that much technology. I mean, with low code, no code game development. My my my son, like he's in great school and he's creating video games that other people are playing. And it's like that would have never been possible. You know, it. sorry. no, just in our area, that would have never been possible. You could have had this whole goal. Like I want to be a video game creator and your parents will look at you like that is the stupidest thing I have ever heard. But now when my son says that he's like, hey, I've created these four games already. Totally. And I remember there was a kid in my school who built computers, like back in the day when like we were first, and that was like, that kid is obviously this super genius, whatever. And to your point, now like anyone could just go on and build a app, like build things that do things. Like that's insane. there was some other point I was going to make on that that was interesting. then, know, ADD forgot it. We'll pick it up again. It just is going to become a side quest and we'll find it later on the journey. I remember what I was going to say. My kids went to summer camp at, they live in the Bay Area. They went to summer camp at Stanford because their friends were going to this video game creation camp. I'm like, great, cool. They'll learn something, right? They go to this camp, they come back, cool. They loved it. It was great. They learned all sorts of cool stuff. I get an alert. It was in Roblox. They're building something. get an alert from Roblox. My kid has monetized their game. Is their game is making money. I'm getting alerts. I, know, it's like since, but I'm like, I didn't even know you did that again. Back to me having no control. I don't know what's going on in the world. My kid has created a game, put it out there and is making money off of it. She's eight. I didn't even know she knew how to do that. And like, don't know. Thanks Stanford. I guess. But to your point, it's only going to get easier. only going to get easy. And they're so enterprising, you know, like they're not even going to need college, I feel like they're just going to be smarter than all of the professors by the time they get there. Well, and then they'll be called lazy because that is, mean, history has taught us anyway, anything, it's that they're gonna be called lazy. It's just, hope our generation won't be the one to do it. You know, it's so interesting. I'm watching everybody talk about AI in the exact same way people used to talk about the Internet, right? Everyone's going to get stupid because you don't have to go to the library anymore for information. And it's like, shouldn't it be that more information all the time is better? And yes, I understand the point about if you don't know how to write anymore. But if you read AI stuff, you still have to know what good writing sounds like, you know, like we're still humans. Like it doesn't take away our ability to like a good story, you know what I mean? So like, I don't know, it might make it easier for us to write, but maybe it will also make it easier for us to discern what is good writing. And maybe more people will give a shit about what good writing is because we spend so much less time on the people who don't like to write having to learn how to write well, if that makes sense, you know? Like not everybody has to be a good writer is what I'm getting at. If there are tools that make it so everybody can be a good writer, that uplevels everybody because all content is better in the end. I don't know. And I know that that is like a controversial take because writers will say, but then I don't have a thing anymore, but I don't agree with that. I just think that we have to figure out how do we adapt to the tools that are coming because they're not going away, right? How do we adapt and use them to make ourselves better at whatever it is that we do? What I worry about is the whole, what is that, the Bare Naked Ladies song, It's All Been Done before. I worry about that type of effect on art where AI can only learn from what's been done, from what has been created. And so how do we get new? How do we have a new story? okay, isn't that then the opportunities for humans then? Like that's where I say, like I get why artists would be upset that like AI is, but it's like, but they only create what's been done before. So like there is white space for all the new shit. And my biggest gripe right now in 2025 is we're just repeating everything. All the movies are just remakes of before, right? Music sucks. It's all the same. They're just remixing all the music from the nineties and like, It is already all done before. And if AI is going to make it so that like, we are all sick of all of the done before, it will create, it will force new, it'll force everybody to do something new because we're sick of the spam of everything. And you know what? We're already seeing this happen with just content online. We are all sick of AI generated content. And so now everybody who is doing that is having to adjust and having to change it because it doesn't work anymore. That's in like a year that's happened. So like times AI, times every industry, all the things, like it's gonna be uncomfortable because change is uncomfortable. But this idea that like we're somehow gonna stop the train is insane. And I don't know how anyone has that mindset because we're not gonna stop this train. So we really have to adapt fast before train leaves the station. And you're just sitting here going like back to my point, my parents looking over my shoulder with AOL going, what is that WWW? Dot what? Yeah. Well, and understand that it's a train. And so don't ask a train to fly you to Europe. It's a train. know, like, understand what AI is good at and what it's not good at. It's not going to come up with creative dialogue. It should not be writing novels, screenplays, any of that stuff. But you know what it can give you is it can give you an idea. It can fact check you. It is great for research and research papers like Like know what it can do and what it can't do. Otherwise you're, you're going to end up drowning in the water and your train that you thought could fly. 100%. And plus, it's changing so fast that like what it can do today is not going to be the same thing that can do in a week, in which case, if you're not like incrementally learning, you really are just going to be, it's going to be so hard to overcome the knowledge gap at some point if you're, if you're resistant to the change that's happening and like, you know, Because I think of my ADHD and probably to your point about being this elder millennial that's always on the cusp of things that are changing. Like I'm embracing it from the perspective of like I'm to try new shit and see if it helps my life. Right. Like this is a cool new video tool. Like, oh, you know, CapCut went out for what? 24 hours, 48 hours. I have a new video tool. CapCut is out. Like, sorry. Like I tried a new thing and here we go. And I love that. Like I love that part of AI, which Right now we're in this wild west where it's everywhere, there's a billion for everything. We should all be out trying all of the things while we have the opportunity to do it because in a year people are going to have decided these are the three video tools that are available now because the market will have consolidated. And it's like right now is your time. Go try all the things and like get good at it and learn new things. And I don't know, we're in a scrappy mode right now before it's easy. And I think that... Again, elder millennials, we embrace that. And I think more people got to get on board. Yeah. Scrappy AI training time. It's the old country buffet approach to this. You're just going to try everything and then go back for seconds to what you like. Like that's how it should be. And that's how I my employees to think too. It's like, go try some tools. You guys find something that works, come and share with us, right? That's actually like my kind of my approach on LinkedIn now is like, I try things and then I just tell people what works or I tell people what doesn't work and then look, resonates. Well, and you do a good job of articulating this battle with AI in public. You had a post, what, like a week or so ago that blew up the comments section about how people are recognizing AI, but it's really just good writing. Yeah, I mean, I mean, that goes to the to your point. I mean, it's learning off of what's been done before. And I love how people had to like throw in examples of like, you know, writing from the 1800s to be like, hey, look, this is how they used dashes back there, just the same way you're accusing AI of writing. And I do think that's a really interesting thing. What I find most offensive about this is that people are suggesting that we add typos to our writing. so that people don't think it's AI generated. And as a communications person who prides myself on writing, I would rather stab myself in the eyeball than intentionally add typos to my writing. Are you kidding me? It's like telling a chef to oversalt something. Why? Get out of here. Masterpiece, don't ruin it with a typo. Just so somebody believes that it's real, like, ah, makes me insane. But that advice is a non-starter. How do we get past that mode? I and to be fair, you could have AI read the post and then just tell it include a couple of spelling errors in your post like it's not going to solve the problem. Well, and this also goes to, let's pretend all of my content was AI generated and none of you knew it, who would care? That goes to my point. Like, we need to be able to discern what is good writing. We don't necessarily have to be good writers. Somebody has to be a good writer because like, you know, but not everybody. And I just, feel like there is this interesting push and pull of like, If a human isn't doing it, it's bad, but I just feel like if the output is bad, it's bad, right? And right now AI outputs are not great. And so if they get to the point where their content sounds very human and doesn't have the same kind of recognizable patterns where our brain immediately says AI writing, who gives a shit if AI is writing it? And I'm a comms person. This is my job. Like you will be taking away part of my role. if that happens, but I'm okay with that because there will be other things that I can do. There are other things that I could do with my time right now if I had extra time to not be writing LinkedIn content, you know? And I just like, I think that's gonna be the next phase of this is everyone just kind of being like, I'm not gonna accuse you of it being AI writing because who cares as long as the writing doesn't feel like it's AI writing. I don't know. me way more than clearly blatant AI written posts is the copy and paste of a post within an organization. And so they're all sharing the same blog with the same two lines that marketing put together. Nobody changes anything. And like it all just shows up in your feed because you're going to be connected with more than one person from a company if you're doing business with the company. So what the hell? The thing is, is like I'm a huge fan of employee social media advocacy, which is what you're talking about. The problem is, is that if you don't have engaged employees, it's just spam. And LinkedIn knows that. LinkedIn, like those posts are getting 100 views and it's only from other people at your company. Like they're not going anywhere. They do absolutely nothing unless those people are already engaged, right? Like if you're engaged, if I post one of those on LinkedIn, I will get engagement on mine because like I'm on LinkedIn engaging with other people going into the comments, right? Like LinkedIn isn't stupid anymore and has figured that out. And to your point, it just looks like spam in that case. And this is kind of my whole point about like 2025 is it's we're not marketing to the masses anymore, right? It is about conversations and about communities and about one-to-one conversations, whether you're the CEO or a salesperson or a marketing person or a freaking engineer, right? Like all of it comes down to, if I'm an engineer, my community's on Reddit, those, whatever, I'm in there talking about what I'm doing to do my job better. If I'm a marketer, I'm in my community's talking about what I'm doing to do my job better, right? That's where we're learning about tools and how we're sharing and information. That's where marketers need to be focusing their time and effort. And if you're creating that stuff for your employees to post on social, they should also be able to use that for other things, right? Like go into your communities and talk about this, use this piece of content for something else. And I think that's kind of like the extra mile that people aren't taking. It's like, let's enable all of the employees. Let's not just spam everybody with, hey, post this. Well, and to your point earlier, they have to feel comfortable to be themselves. Otherwise, they're just going to go with whatever marketing rope because it's safe and it's easy. Instead of having a really unique take or even adding a unique photo of themselves, bringing some personality or flair, you have to be comfortable to add personality and flair and not feel like you're going to get fired because of it. Yeah, and that's what's so weird is like, who I again, I must be working at places that are not this way. But like, who is saying to people, you can't post photos on LinkedIn? there's obviously people out there saying it because when I I mean, I've become a quote influencer on LinkedIn accidentally. So I get a lot of messages from people asking me for advice and say the number one thing everyone says is I'm scared to post because somebody at work is going to see it. And I'm like, Do you not talk to your coworkers? When you're at work, do you just not tell them about your kids? Do you not talk about your pets? Do you never say, my God, my car broke down? Of course you talk about your life and the shit that happens and whatever. You share yourself with people in a specific context, right? LinkedIn is no different than that. And I don't see why there needs to be this, if I'm not talking about work things on LinkedIn, then it doesn't belong on LinkedIn. I don't go to work and only talk about work things with people. know, Mark, how was your day? I'm sorry. your kid is sick. That sucks, right? Like put that shit on LinkedIn. That's what makes you human. And I feel like those are the things we need to start like encouraging of our employees and not punishing like, I saw that you were on LinkedIn at 2 p.m. and so you weren't working. Why don't you look at that as like that's good for your company that people see somebody from your company out there sharing ideas, interacting, right? That is how you get found. I don't know. To me, it seems obvious, but I realize that not everybody feels that way. I think it's just a little bit of fear, right? Like I think employees, particularly in a volatile job market, like the one that we're in, people are just worried that they might ruffle the feathers of somebody with enough power to stop them from getting a paycheck. And so is it worth it to post their, you know, like their take on the company content? Like that's one of my favorite posts ever is we just released a blog. or a white paper or a webinar. And then I'm going to give you my take on what it says. It is the best sales play for LinkedIn you're ever going to get, but nobody wants to do it because what if their take is different than, you know, the powers that be. Well, that goes back to the psychological safety thing, right? Like we just need to be creating these environments where employees don't feel like they're here to jump through hoops and then go home. They should feel like they're here to help. Like we're all here to drive specific outcomes like together, right? Like there is this sense of like we're all doing this for the greater good. And so every interaction I'm having out there online, my personal brand is a positive reflection of the corporate brand. Right. So I could see why a company wouldn't want you out there. you know, blasting the CEO, like you because your personal brand is a reflection of the corporate brand. But at the same time, you should be encouraging your your employees like, hey, if people are sending you notes on LinkedIn, go respond to them. Take the time to write whatever review or, you know, somebody left the company, go write them a positive review. We should be like trying to teach people how to do that, because again, the personal brand I think is going to be the most important thing that reflects the corporate brand, because how do you decide what is a good place to work? You hear stories from people. You see shit on LinkedIn, right? That's how, my God, that brand, the stuff that they're doing, like I want to work there. That place looks awesome. The people who work there are the kind of people I want to work with. And, you know, I get messages all the time, like, let me know when you're hiring. You're exactly the kind of person I want to work for. Like, I have a pipeline three years long of people I could hire now just because of how I'm showing up on LinkedIn. Imagine if all of your executives were doing that, right? Like just, I don't know. Again, seems obvious to me. And I wish that more people were embracing this because it's not hard, but it does take time, right? And I think that's the, that's the trade-off is it's not like, you don't have to learn a new skill. You don't have to like learn a new tool. You just have to decide to put in the effort. Or if you're going to empower your employees through social media advocacy, actually empower them and help train them and help, you know, do more than like, here's a post, repost. Well, and if they're all used to doing that and they all feel really comfortable doing that, when you inevitably go into a PR crisis, because every company is going to have it at some point, does it not make it easier when you have five people that you can push out as voices of the company because they built their own personal brands, people like them and trust them? I was going to say not just voices, trusted voices, right? 100%. I just, you know, we all understand this idea of a cult of personality. And I'm not saying everybody needs to have a cult of personality. But what it does mean is like your brand precedes you. And in the world of the internet, if you're not shaping your own narrative online, the internet is shaping it for you. Because if I Google you, if you don't ever post on LinkedIn or whatever and I Google you, something's popping up about you, whatever that is. Maybe it's somewhere you worked nine years ago. And so if I'm your future employer, I'm looking at that. I'm like, this person's kind of boring. You Google me, you're going to find 97 podcasts and a bunch of things I've written. And you're going to get a sense of like, Becca is my people or Becca is not my people. Right. Like that's a good thing. I don't want to go work somewhere where somebody is not my people. Just like. somebody doesn't want to work for me if they're not my people. And I think if you can shape that story, you can. It's a boon to not just like your personal brand and it brings you opportunities and whatever, but it's like it's it's good for everybody. I don't know. It's like it's the new networking, right? Like your online thing is your calling card now. And as much as people want to resist it, like you have to you're out there. So you have to shape it. And so if you're not going to do it. Somebody's gonna do it. Google's gonna do it. Exactly. And I think you set yourself up really well for this. And that's why your inbox is flooded with so many people like, I really want to work for you because like, what is earlier earlier this week, you had posted something about, you know, the the most profitable, most profitable marketing role that nobody talks about or knows about. And you talk, you're talking about analyst relations. And, know, all of us who've done any analyst relations the past know everything you said is 100 % true. But the amount of, you know, earlier in their career folks that that just seemed to like open their eyes like that's a role. It was remarkable. And so I can see how you're building that funnel because you're posting something that genuinely might impact somebody's life for the better. And then if they go into AR, maybe they come work for you at some point. And you know what? This is, again, like when people ask me for advice, LinkedIn, whatever, what I have found to be my most successful content is like the talk to my team. Like if my audience is like the people that work for me or people who might work for me in the future, what would I say to them? Because I am all about like mentorship and coaching because I know that I'm putting in so much time into these people that I want them to want to work for me in the future, right? Like I want them to say, hey, Becca, when you go get a new job, please think of me if you have because like Then we just get off to like a much better start. don't know. back to the AR. When I was at McAfee back early in my career, I was doing exec comms. Somebody went out on a maternity leave and it was like, we're not going to hire a backfill. Can somebody do these meetings? And I was doing exec comms, so I already was working with the executive. So I was like, okay, I'll go sit in on the meetings with them. Nobody even told me what I was supposed to be doing there. was like, Becca, go and take notes in the meetings. And so I just kind of like observed like, Okay, and now I'm going to these events and like, okay, you have to go to this cocktail hour. But I'm like, what am I doing here? Like nobody's tell, what am I supposed to be doing here? And I guess I look at it that way, right? Like if I can just give the past me a little bit of information about like, here's a little context about what this might be or this situation or what you can expect. It goes back to me feeling neurodivergent, like the person without the script and everybody else seems to know what they're doing. And I'm trying to figure it out. The context helps just people feel like, I could do that, or I understand something better. And that's the content that resonates with people. That and the like pointing out, I feel your pain in this way, right? Like I know that you all have this same pain point because I'm experiencing it every day and putting words to that. People love that shit. Authenticity counts. That's it. It's all the authenticity. And it's also entertaining. So I think what a lot of people miss is, you have your, corporate branding and you can't stray too far one way or the other, unless you're really early stage startup, then you can have, have fun and do whatever the hell you want. but everybody else is straddling that line, but your individual employees don't have to do that. They can relate to people on a personal level. They can, you know, show off their tattoos and things like they they can articulate things in a way that's different than the standard messaging from the brand. And I think it just attracts people and it's entertaining and it's less corporate stodgy bullshit and more. Wow, that's a really cool way to put it. And I love that. I love that you you bought that Ace of Base single first. Not to mention, by the way, that it also like, my God, my fucking brain today. You're going to have to edit this out too. What was the last thing you said before Ace of Base? Go ahead. You can leave this in. I mean, the ADD is strong in the afternoon. I actually tend not to do podcasts after one o'clock because like my brain, like thoughts, blah, Hmm. Something about... My brain doesn't start working until it's like noon. Anything before that, you're getting lesser marks. Mine, it's like the like one to five is my like brain dead for talking. I can do lots of things. I just can't get my, I can't be articulate. I'll put it that way. being articulate is overrated, especially on podcasts, right? Like people don't want articulate. People want feelings and vibes and yeah, authenticity. Yeah. brought me all the way back. We've just ADD'd ourselves back. The side quest, the people showing up online shows the personality of your company. Your company can tell everybody, this is my brand. These are our colors. We're these things. And here's our blog. And this tells us all about the culture. What really tells you about the culture are the people posting online, are the videos that you see of your friends working somewhere, are the, you know, All of the people who I follow are working at these sorts of companies, right? Like it does permeate, right? Like there's people talk to each other. I actually have another post that's somewhere in my future schedule that's about the thing that impacts your brand the most are your employees. Your employees talk, your former employees talk. So you should treat your employees really well when they're going out the door too, because Your culture precedes you and people are all speaking to each other and they're talking behind closed doors in places that you can't necessarily impact. So you can impact them while they're working there and their experience there. And that brand is the brand that is going to attract other employees to work at your. Well, and it's not only employees working your company, it's customers buying from your company too. cannot tell you how many calls I have gotten or DMs and text messages of folks like, Hey, my company is looking at such and such company. I know you worked there. Give me your own honest take all the time. I was sitting on an executive team once when we were talking about doing a technology partnership with a company that I was was like massively sexually harassed by one of the executives at that company, close that deal right down, right? Like because one person's personal brand ruined that deal. And I don't know, maybe I shouldn't say that, but like, My company didn't want to have anything to do with people like that, right? Thank God I work somewhere that had, you know, some morals, but like personal brand matters. Employer brand matters. And if you're not putting in the effort, those stories are being written. Like if you're not writing them, somebody's writing them. And I just cannot stress that enough. That last example is a good one. I had a group of people tell me that when I was doing exec comms that having me in the room was like having a chick in the frat house. And every time somebody tells me that they work for a company that one of those execs is a leader at, I'm like, I got a story for you, you know, because like that shit stuck with me. That impacted me. That mattered. Right. And to other women who are considering jobs at that company that, I dodged a bullet. I do not want to work somewhere like that. Right. So. Well, and one question that I often ask in any interview process that I'm going through and what I recommend to people that are interviewing, find out the last five people that they hired in that level. So if you're a director level, ask about the last five directors that they hired, get it in order, and then look them up on LinkedIn. Cause you're going to understand their mindset of hiring. Did they hire them? like are four of them from the same company and they all work for the same exec? Like what is that? What is what's their vibe? Well, you know, where do they go to school at? Like what's their background? I've gotten it every time. And part of part of it's just because it's public information to like, I usually preface it. And this is what I recommend to our listeners preface it with. I could look this up on LinkedIn. But if you could Please save me the time. I'd like to know the last five directors that were hired or maybe you want to do three so you don't sound as you know, like for me, if I'm interviewing for a VP role, I want the last five. I want to know that and LinkedIn. If you have the premium on their on the insights, you're going to be able to see the notable new hires and you're going to be able to see the folks who left and I can I can see I can see exactly and then who are the people that are going away from is one of them is one of them super badass like Becca chambers and like, and they somehow let her go like, what the hell, and then I can I can understand more of their culture than all the bullshit that they're telling me about who they are. Well, who you are is who you hire. Well, I was going to say, plus who you are today might not be who you're going to be in three months if you just hired six new directors who are, you know what I mean? Like that is a great barometer. I love that. That never even occurred to me. And I like to consider myself a thoughtful person, especially when it comes to interviewing. I like that. I think you should just clip that right there. Post that on LinkedIn. Hot tip. Mark Bliss hiring tips. But I also think talking about hiring, think that there is a, because of the hiring crunch right now, especially in tech, people are scared to ask questions that they would normally ask in hiring processes. And I think that that's doing everybody a disservice because we're going to end up with bad fits when really all everybody wants is just to be gainfully employed. But they're like, well, I'm not going to ask the questions just in case they don't like my question. And then you end up with somebody who maybe isn't the right person in the role. But I don't know. I could wax on about that for a year. I think the, you know, everybody wants to be employed thing. I totally agree, but I don't think it's only financial. And I think this is where people are missing it Some outdated thinking says that people are just there for the paycheck. When in reality, people can get a paycheck from anywhere. What they're looking for is. to make some sort of a difference, to do something that matters. Purpose. Yeah. And if you can't give them that, then yes, it's just a paycheck. And this goes back to the like why employee engagement stuff matters because if you've got employees who are coming to work every day and just collecting a paycheck, they are going to leave. They are not going to stay there forever. They are going to find something that does give them a sense of purpose and pays them. Right. And I think that all of the new data shows that I don't know if it's millennials in Gen Z or if it's just Gen Z will take less pay for a job that gives them more flexibility and purpose or whatever those things are. That's a huge shift. I would say Gen Xers are hardcore, I'm take my paycheck and I'm gonna go home. I don't give a shit. I don't care about my job, but I'm gonna show up and do a good job every day and then I'm gonna go home. I know millennials at least, we feel like we need to come and have a reason to be here. Why are we here, right? I need to know why I come to work every day and feel like I matter to something. I think Gen Z is even way more hardcore about it. Not just like, how does it matter to me? How does this matter to the world? Like what are we doing here that is serving a purpose, a greater good? And I think that if you can't articulate to your employees why they're showing up every day, they're gonna find somebody who can. Well, and also fun tip, complete side note, because we keep it real here on GTM After Hours, you can search who your executives gave political donations to. that's spicy. There you go. I mean, you can search who anybody gave political donations to. if that really matters to you, as it does to a lot of Gen Z folks in the workforce, if that really matters to you, you can learn that before you ever accept the job. Very true. Interesting. know, this goes back to the like, your story is online. You need to write your story, right? Think about this. Think about if I wanted to hire somebody and. They were the best person for the job. I desperately wanted to hire them. But they had a former boss who was also hiring. How would I win that deal? Right. The only way I win that deal, other than paying them more, but let's say that's not an option, is like, what do I have to offer you? And that freaking matters to people. Just like I would choose the people I would go have coffee with. I'm going to choose the people I go to work with every day. Write your freaking story. Don't let other people write it for you. I feel like that's the 2025 is the year of like own your story. Boom. So we really like to keep it real here. And I want to ask about the times where you in your career felt like you couldn't do that or where you struggled with that because, I'm talking to Becca today. Becca in the past probably struggled with that. with owning my story? For sure. I still struggle with owning my story. I mean, I think that, I think even understanding your own story is half of the battle, right? And for me, like understanding that I had ADHD was a huge part of that. It like answered a lot of questions and then recognizing, you know, the difference in who I am versus who I think other people want me to be is also different. And that's like the finding your voice thing. So to answer your question. I don't think I found my voice until the past few years. And that's as somebody who knows how to capture people's voices, right? So I don't think it's easy necessarily. I just think it's necessary. I don't know. I guess it's like the advice is just start doing it because somebody is doing it. the way that ADHD works is... Pressure causes you to be able to do things, right? Anxiety, time pressure, whatever that is, the dopamine's flowing, get things done. My personal, I know that out there, if I wanna get a job, people need to like me, they need to know who I am, blah, blah. My knowing that gives me that pressure to show up and do the thing. Even if it's hard. even if I don't want to do it the same way other people think about the gym or whatever. I don't go to the gym, so that's not relevant to me. But I look at it the same way. And I think that with the you don't have to know your voice, but you know how you learn your voice? Start writing stuff because as you're writing stuff or here's an idea, I'm driving and I have an idea, you know, voice to text it in your own voice. And then write that down. Like that's how you start to learn and you just got to start somewhere and nobody's going to be good at it the first time around. You just have to try like anything else. Like you're not going to be good at dribbling unless you keep going out every day and dribble, dribble, dribble. So I guess that's the way that I feel about building your personal brand is like start small, start asking people if they want to jump on a podcast or like a, you know, let's get on zoom and record it and see what happens. Like there's so many ways, easy ways for people to create content. doesn't have to be writing, right? Just build your brand. You don't have to have a website. You've got LinkedIn for that now, right? Or you've got Twitter or Blue Sky or whatever you want to use. It's not hard anymore and goes back to all the tools. Now there's all the tools in the world. So you can curate your brand and if you're not doing it, somebody's going to be doing it for you. love the voice note thing. I actually use that for anytime I have like an internal subject matter expert. I never want them to write anything down. I only ever want it in their own words. So don't send me shit that you wrote. Just talk for three minutes on a voice memo. Send me that. 100 times better. executives is let's get on the phone for an hour. I've got a bunch of prompts, but let's just see where the conversation takes us. And if I can record an hour of us talking, I guarantee you there's 10 pieces of content in there. You can be talking about your dog. Again, it goes to the like, we could be talking about technical stuff. We could be talking about product launches, or we can be talking about traffic. But whatever those things are, there is a story in there that somebody will connect with that, you know, if you just think in human terms. I read something on LinkedIn that I liked, how could I create something like that? I just think people are overthinking it to the point where they scare themselves out of doing it. And I say this, I don't make video because I am scared to do it and I overthink it. So I am totally a hypocrite when it comes to that, but that's my personal challenge to myself. Maybe today I'll go make a video because my hair's already done. So I'll go and make my first LinkedIn video, but it is just Start it. I assume my first video is going to be shitty. And I assume if I keep making videos for the next year, next year, I'm going to know how to do all sorts of cool production shit. And I'm going to like know how to make my skin glow and make the backgrounds cool. But like my first video is going to be awkward and I'm going to hate it. And in a year I'm look back and be like, my God, but you got to start somewhere. Well, and to I mean, I look I love the whole just do it thing. Get started, do something forward progress is always better than the alternative. But you also don't have to know everything. You can invest in yourself by hiring somebody who knows it. Right? I mean, with with the gig economy, you can go and get some like if you want to start a podcast, go hire somebody who knows podcasts. If talk about our podcast sidekick because Elijah is both of our friend. But yes, you're right. I've got a story actually about Elijah since we are brought up the gig economy. He sent me a note on LinkedIn. I don't know. He saw my content on LinkedIn. It's total stranger to me. Sent me a note. I don't even remember what it was about. Liked my content, said something about whatever. We just struck up a conversation totally irrelevant from his job, right? Flash forward three months. I am starting a podcast and I need help with podcasts. I just sent him a note. Hey bro, I need help with a podcast. You're the first person that came to mind because you're top of mind because you're in my DMs all the time. And guess what? Elijah and I are working together now. And I feel like what is a better story of like personal brand leading to a gig for him help for me, like potential future collaboration. Like, I don't know. Perfect story to kind of illuminate everything that we're talking about right now, but to your point, if you don't know how to do something, there's somebody who you can pay 200 bucks who probably doesn't know how to do it and can help you do it or at least teach you so that you can get over that hump. Well, and it's again in this, in this day and age, to me, your personal brand is at the same level of making sure that you have a working laptop or internet, you know, so assuming that it is going to cost you a couple hundred dollars. Don't think about it as, I could spend this $200 here, or I could go see a concert. You need to. point, by the way. I'm sorry to interrupt you, but like, I have built a personal brand. Obviously personal brand matters to me, right? I struggle every single day with, oh my God, am I really gonna pay $20 for this monthly subscription to whatever? Are you kidding me? Like, I'm not willing to invest $20 into something that is... important to me and obviously going to be important to my future opportunities. That's insane. To your point, we should be looking at our personal brand as not just like, it's an investment into our future. It's a necessary expenditure, right? Not an investment, just like a, yes, it's infrastructure, right? You need to invest in the infrastructure of your brand. Maybe we need to write a book on this or something. to trains, right? This is, this is your train, you're either getting on or not. Like, let's put some coal in this thing. I, I look, I think that we have this short-sighted view of work because that's how work always was, but it's not how it is today. And the difference between a good offer with a salary that pays your bills. and a great offer with a salary that allows you to take three more vacations in a year is your personal brand because you're able to prove that you know it. You're able to prove like you have those connections. have people vouching for you. You get unearthed job opportunities you never would have heard about before, but because you got that network and so investing $200 in yourself to build that. Why do we question it? I feel the same way about team building, right? Like when people are like, well, I can't spend budget on whatever for my team because I need to spend it on this. And if I spend it on them, they might leave and go use their skills somewhere else. And it's like, really? Or you could view it as like, you're a great manager and that employee is going to want to stick with you as long as they can because you are investing in them. And again, like that's a representative of me as a manager, my brand as a manager, right? And then that person is out there talking about it online, reflecting my brand back to me. does seem so obvious to us, but I understand that this is something that people struggle with. And I think it's something that people are suddenly caring about in a way that I haven't seen people care about before. Like all of a sudden in the past six months, it's like personal brand is everywhere. So that could be my algorithm. just seeing like minded posts because that's what you're engaging with. but all of the jobs I've been interviewing for, that's the thing. Like executive thought leadership and can you do this? And I'm like, I spent the last five years just begging my executives to want to show up online. And now I have people being like, do you know how to do this? And I'm like, I sure do. Yes, I do. Can we just side note of praise to all of the CEOs that are actually willing to get in front of the camera and publicly speak like the advantage you have as a marketer when you have a CEO that can get out in front of a crowd. light years ahead of everything else. Like I've had the engineer minded that that was not their skill set and you're You know, you're kind of fighting the battle with an arm tied behind your back. Like you're doing the best you can. You're trotting out the COO and all that, but it is it's weaker. It's harder to pitch than the CEO. but yeah, shout out to all the CEOs, all the executives out there who put in the time and effort to learn those skills because it benefits their business greatly. 100%. And I think that's the direction that we're going. And I think companies are starting to understand that. I'm seeing COOs and CFOs starting to create video content, and it cracks me up. I was in an interview recently where somebody was like, well, how do you build a personal brand if you don't want to make TikTok videos? I'm like, there is a big gray area between just writing stale blogs and creating TikTok videos, right? And I do think that there is this fear of like, well, I don't want to look like an influencer, right? And it's like, I don't know. There's just such a big just area to be a thought leader that isn't cheesy. And I just think people are scared that either they are buttoned up executive or TikTok dance star. And that's just not the case. Like there's like so much room for people. And I think right now as it's just becoming There's a lot of white space to be a really important thought leader if you're willing to be vulnerable, be the executive who's willing to go out and make a video that's unpolished or whatever. Again, I'm a hypocrite because I'm not willing to do it myself, but that's the kind of stuff that is going to make a huge difference in this next phase of marketing and business and all of that because people are sick of buying from corporate. They want to buy from people. Well, and that's why all of the studies on video conversion, the lower the quality, the more likely people are to respond. Yeah, it's it. It is. Yeah. Yeah. And it's it's it's so counterproductive because you think, well, I've got this great customer testimonial. Let me let me go and spend ten thousand dollars, have a video crew come out and make it all really nice when it's actually more appealing and it will resonate higher with your buyers if they're just like at their desk or in their car or something. And it's a two minute video clip of them just, just saying, yeah, I really loved working with them. And here's why. That's so fascinating. Again, like that is, I think just that's gold that should give people confidence, right? That should be like, you know what? People like it better when you don't have the like super well produced, whatever. They like to see the just unfiltered person person thing. Maybe you'll give me inspo. Maybe I will go make my video today and I will give credit to Mark for my first LinkedIn eat my own dog food video. Ooh, well, it depends on what you're going to dance to, right? I have to choreograph something first. Yeah, full on choreographed dance. I don't know. Ace of Bays is still sitting behind me. You you could totally do it to the sign. Have a pitch perfect moment, you know? I know all the words. You know what's so funny is my kids, I listen to 90s station on SiriusXM all the time. so my kids are, my favorite thing is that when my son hears under pressure, no, when my son hears Ice Baby, he'll go, he ripped this off. And I'm like, I love you so much for knowing that, my little 10 year old weirdo. Yes. do love me some ice ice baby, I actually have the, on my tattoo it says, why don't we give love that one more chance from under pressure. So. is like my all time favorite song. My dog's name is Teddy Mercury because I'm obsessed with Freddie Mercury. We have so much in common, Mark. it took it took us to the end of the podcast to get to Teddy Mercury, but you know, we'll have to we'll have to do a part two. At some point, you'll get your podcast rolling. And we'll do a part two, we'll do a sequel to this. It's gonna be a lot of fun. tell for the part two? Pet and music show and tell? We'll just elder millennial or something. dog's name is Luna Love Doodle. So cute, adorable. Potter house. That's very cute. My kids are only in the last year into Harry Potter, which is nice. What kind of a doodle do you have? So so she's a golden doodle, but with a mini so mini poodle and so that's really really nice Like she's she's a really good size. I Yeah, like 20 25 Depending on the time of year and how much we've shaved her fur Yeah, my dog looks like he weighs 70 pounds sometimes and then you shave him down and he looks like a little 40 pound wiener. Yeah, my my oldest daughter hates it when we have to shave her down because sometimes it gets matted and she's like she just looks like a wet rat even when she's not wet. Me too. Every time we shave the dog, I'm like, Teddy, you look ridiculous. Aren't you embarrassed? And he totally is. He's always like, when he's all shaved, when he's fluffy, he's just confident and happy. And then, yeah, he knows. He knows he looks dorky. Well, this was awesome. I hope I hope our listeners in enjoyed this as much as I did. I end this this up and our episodes the same way every time where I will pass the mic to you and give you the last word. And I want you to talk to your younger self first coming into corporate America. What what is the advice that you give young Becca? who is, you know, scarred from all of those AOL chats. That's right. Number one is don't be like everybody else. Be your own self. And whether or not you know what that is or not, try to find what is your differentiator, right? Because being like everybody else isn't better. And I think you can learn from everybody else by observing and watching. And that was what I was really good at. But what you really need to do is learn from everybody else and then find for your past. and that might sound cheesy, but it really is the thing that sets the great apart from the good and the thing that will help you accelerate your career and be the person that other people want to come to. That's one. The other thing is do the scary thing. I really never liked to do scary things. I didn't like to take big risks. I'm averse to that. But what I realized is somebody would say, Becca, want to... Here's an example. Somebody hired me. offered me a job because I had worked with them before and it was a job I didn't know I hadn't done before. It wasn't that I didn't know how to, I just hadn't done it before. And I was going to say no. And I was like, you know what? Screw it. Yes. And guess what? That entirely changed the trajectory of my career in a positive way. And what it did was it forced me to do something scared and raise my hand and say, sure, I'll try that. Yes, I'll try that. we don't have anyone to do this? I'll do that. And the more I said, okay, I'll try that. I'll figure it out. The better I got at my job. the higher I climbed in the organization. And I cannot stress that enough that as a leader, the person on my team who is like, I could do that, I'll figure it out. Even if they don't know how to do it, that's the person I will hire every time. So be that, all figured out person is the ultimate teammate. And I wish I had known that sooner because I was that person and I wish I had leaned into it and really like embrace the all figures.